It seems that the Kramnik team will sue FIDE unless:
1. The forfeit loss in game 5 is reversed
2. He wins the match
Below is the latest letter from Kramnik’s manager to FIDE:
Gentlemen,
FIDE published its decision to Vladimir Kramniks appeal due to formal reasons. Vladimir Kramnik will continue the match subject to the condition to clarify his rights regarding game 5, due to the facts that
a) FIDE breached the contract,
b) an illegal protest of Mr. Topalov has been approved by the former FIDE Appeals Committee (this decision was already final and confirmed by the FIDE President in writing),
c) Game 5 should have never been started under these conditions
Mr. Kramnik will follow the strong advise from his lawyers to sue FIDE after this match has been concluded.
Best regards,
Carsten Hensel
(Manager to Vladimir Kramnik, Classical World Chess Champion)
Source: ChessBase
Kramnik and his manager sound like a bunch of jackass. Shut the hell up and play chess. I’m tired of their crap.
Why bother even playing!! For money?? If a law suit is the end result, the attempt of a unified championship has failed -Joe
This is what Topalov has to put up with. Kramnik ducked Kasparov and any real challenger. His only match was against Leko and guess who Leko’s manager is? The same Hensel. The match was clearly fixed. Now we see that Kramnik is a paper champion.
So, Topalov has been vilified, and Kramnik is now the hero and the victim …
First I want to point out that the whole thing came as an avalanche, both for us and for the participants in Elista. It got out of proportion! The emotions blurred the lines of wrong and right!
There were many fine details and nuances in what happened, and some of them were accepted as a given truth, while they are at least questionable and gray.
Can’t you recall how your own conviction and opinion got stronger and clearer with every next article or blog post? The mind has a subconscious affinity to get affected by opinions of others. And then with the emotions growing, was very easy to feel like Kramnik has done all the right moves, and Topalov is wrong and a “scumbag”.
Interesting thing – reading the Bulgarian forums, the opinions and emotions are also very high, but with the opposite view on the situation. Simply there the opinions have been formed and slid towards their current state in a similar orchestrated crowded environment where a person gets affected by the others commenting.
My point is, don’t be so fast to make the big judgment before knowing all the details and try to put yourself in the place of Kramnik or Topalov from the very beginning of the crisis, and imagine what would you do at every next step.
1. Going back to the beginning the way I saw the things is this:
Game 4, Topalov has a slight advantage, tries to push and win in the way he has done so many times before. Kramnik is mostly in his rest area. Comes plays then goes back there. Offers a draw several times, looks annoyed. I have not seen his face, but isn’t it possible that his behavior has been something like: “Come on Veselin, this is a draw, you can not beat me. Let’s go and watch the Champions League!” It might have been done in a colleague respectable way, but might have been done (more likely) in a cold, arrogant, mind-games destroy-your-opponent-mentally way!
I am speculating, but it is a possibility.
Then Topalov looks shaken and defeated and Danailov revises a plan to respond in the psycho war with a protest about “suspicious” Kramnik behavior in the rest room. I did not like it when came out. It had “Danailov” and not “Topalov” written all over it.
So far it is all “normal” (considering Danailov is invloved) and kind of expected for such an important match.
2. Later Kramnik turned the public opinion in his favor by refusing to play without his toilet! It is a little too much! Nunn defended him saying he did no want to give in any psychological advantage to Topalov. Well the advantage he had by that point was probably not so much based on the 3:1 result, but on the fact that he was not present on the stage and behaved annoyed, plus the Champions League comments were the tip.
3. Many people said the Appeal Committee’s decision was a violation of the contract. Well in the contract it was not specified that there is going to be a separate bathroom for each player. Having one for both of them is within the lines of the contract.
4. People pointed out that Topalov’s team, by getting the video of Kramnik’s rest area, gained the important advantage of checking out Kramnik’s reactions through the turns of the game. Well what about the fact that Topalov stayed on the stage, and Kramnik was observing him on the monitor from inside, while Topalov could not know what is Kramnik doing inside the rest area?
5. And finally – I am sure Topalov has no idea about how much Danailov’s arguments and carefully (wrongly) used words have hurt his name and image. I agree that Topalov has a huge guilt by relying on and having trust in such an unpleasant man. But I am sure that the view Topalov has on what has happened is very different, filtered, projected, than the view we have.
I have had email correspondence from time to time with Veselin, and he has been good in responding always, but never during a tournament (or a match) when the concentration and preparation do not allow outside interference.
Svilen
The FIDE looks like having messed up again..to let the match continue UNDER PROTEST does not sound or feel right
Go ahead punk, sue us 🙂
FIDE would much rather have Kramnik sue them over game 5 than Topalov. That’s the opinion of their legal counsel.
My prediction — as soon as Topalov ties the score, Kramnik will do everything possible to sabotage the match. That’s also what Kasparov hinted in his Chessbase interview.
Kramnik and his manager lied! They stated that Topalov’s protest was invalid because it’s past 2 hours. But now we learn that it’s not true.
Here is what Seirawan, a Kramnik supporter said:
“…described the Topalov/Danailov complaint as invalid because it was filed more than two hours after game four ended, but this reveals a further misunderstanding. The complaint was not about a decision by the Chief Arbiter but about the behavior of Topalov’s opponent. Such a complaint can be made at any time.”
Now we see the true colors of Kramnik and Hensel, 2 weasels.
It is OK to play under protest when someone is feeling unjusticed. It is a completely different story to keep the selfish and atagonic attitude along the rest of the match, as Kramnik is doing now.
Anyway, he is free to do what he is doing. He can be sure he will lose a lot of fans he gained recently.
Of course, Topalov was much calmer in the press conference, as he is the one who got the free point. It is easier to be nicer that way. However, Kramnik is once again reacting very childishly. If he is to sue FIDE then the most coherent now is to stop playing and abandon the match. Why doesn’t he? Clearly because he is one point ahead and still sees he has chances to win the match and take the money. He is gambling on two sides. How sad.
Anyway, let him threat, whine and scream. I don’t fond of FIDE, but I believe they don’t have anything to be afraid of from Kramink’s childish threats.
So disappointed in Kramnik. Now he just turned into a real dud. Either play or stop and sue. He shouldn’t have the right to do both. That’s BS.
Yes, I’m quite disappointed at this latest announcement by Kramnik.
Previously, I defended Kramnik’s not playing the fifth game by saying it wouldn’t be fair for him to play the game, find out the result, and then try to invalidate the result of the game because of the change of the playing conditions. You can’t have two chances to go after the game.
But here, it looks like Kramnik is doing the same thing with the match as a whole — if he wins, the lawsuit is moot, but if he loses, he can sue FIDE for another chance.
My respect for Kramnik’s position has just disappeared.
Spassky lost to Fischer, in large part, because he lost the psychological edge by giving in to Fischer’s demands before game 3. It wouldn’t surprise if Kramnik, should he decide to continue this match, will go on to lose it.
Svilen wrote: Having one [bathroom] for both of them is within the lines of the contract.
Agreed. But the reason the Appeal’s Committee decision was a violation of the contract was that all changes to the previously agreed-upon playing conditions have to be approved by both players before going into affect. Kramnik didn’t agree.
If you think Topalov should have a chance to beat Kramnik by a game that was not played, then I suppose it is also reasonable to think that Kramnik shouldn’t sue FIDE about that illegally forfeited game.
Yeah, when Kramnik is filing complaints and appeals there is no 2 hour rule in his opinion.
Topalov’s complaint was not about a specific game outcome. The 2 hour rule did not apply. Kramnik can sue and lose, plain and simple.
This is not correct logic:
“But the reason the Appeal’s Committee decision was a violation of the contract was that all changes to the previously agreed-upon playing conditions have to be approved by both players before going into affect.”
The change in playing conditions was made to correct a misbehavior by Kramnik (disturbing and potentially cheating by going so often to the toilet). It is the arbiter’s and committee’s obligation to prevent such action if and when it occurs.
I will bet my place in all future WC cycles that no lawsuit will take place.
– GM Kramnik may win the match anyway, in which case what is left to sue about? A lawsuit is about getting damages or some other kind of legal remedy. If GM Kramnik wins the match, what is the damage? What is the remedy?
– Even if GM Topalov wins the match using the point from the game 5 forfeit, GM Kramnik gets the same amount of money, so what would the damages be in that case? What would the proposed remedy be?
– In the event that GM Topalov wins with a margin of 1 point or less, would GM Kramnik be suing to force FIDE to organize a new match? Or a replay of game 5? Wouldn’t this mean disrupting all upcoming WC-related events? Isn’t this just impossible?
– As with all sporting events, the contract is very clear that this is a FIDE event and that FIDE has the ultimate discretion to determine how it is going to be conducted. How can any lawsuit proceed in the face of this? Suppose, by analogy, that you could prove that the NFL gave an unfair advantage to one of the teams in the Super Bowl. But is any court going to interfere with the right of the NFL to run the Super Bowl however it chooses? Who is going to organize chess events if the participants can later demand that judges, not organizers, make the final decisions about the conditions of play and who wins? If organizers run events unfairly, the remedy is not to play in their events.
– How would a lawsuit deal with FIDE’s argument that “if you sit in the relaxation room and don’t show up for the game, it’s a forfeit”, and for that matter that they would be violating their own contractual obligations to GM Topalov if they hadn’t imposed the forfeit? You might claim that GM Kramnik was morally justified in doing it, but how do you make this into a legal claim that the forfeit was legally caused by FIDE’s own actions? How is it different than if GM Kramnik had actually resigned the game in protest on move 20 or move 5, and then said he wanted a replay?
– Where would a hypothetical court case even be heard? Wouldn’t it have to be brought in Elista, since this was the location of the match which was the subject matter of the case, the residence of the defendant Ilyumzhinov, and the site of all the relevant events? How impartial are the courts in Elista? How worthwhile is such an undertaking likely to be?
Kramnik just want to have his cake and choke on it too.
They should both be stripped of their GM titles and the WC crown awarded to Karpov.
“Why bother even playing!! For money??”
Of course they are playing only for the money, as you would too. Finally the faces of chess grandmasters surface. That writer was right – all GMs are crazy.
I am sorry to have to say that this match has turned into a pig sty.
Is Seirawan right in stating that everyone else is wrong.
It’s interesting that all comments from ones who know everything about everything come only from USA territory.
Neither the initial appeal by Danailov, nor the response by the appeals committee, mentioned anything about Kramnik’s behavior being “disturbing.” If it were, why would Kramnik still be allowed to get up and pace in the relaxation room but not in the lavatory? Disturbance can’t be used to justify the appeals committee’s actions.
When Spassky’s team was suspicious that Fischer’s personal chair, which he brought from the U.S., could be used for cheating, did the tournament officials take the chair away and replace it with another? No, because that would be changing the playing conditions. Instead, they checked the chair out by X-raying it and dismantling it. The analogy to this match is obvious.
Surely he’ll sue FIDE whether he wins the match or not?
Btw, Topalov and Kramnik are both getting paid the same amount whatever the result. So in no way is this about money, not principle. Duh.
The procedure announced by Team Kramnik is totally right!
Topalov received a full point out of really NOTHING, aided by a bunch of incredible wrong decisions.
The whole course of events between game 4 and game 5 was so logically consistent that it could be assumed to be planned by ‘Mastermind’ Danailov (using connections to his good old friends)!
In which world do we live to be accused to defend our rights???
If I were in Kramnik’s place I would not have continued the match after the toiletgate. But now it seems that Kramnik is more clever than I am. I support him fully.
It’s interesting how reading a simple blog like this you can easily strenghten your conviction of how morally corrupted America have become. They can’t tell right from wrong anymore. All those people attacking Kramnik here don’t have even the slightest basic sense of ethics or fairplay. Probably the same people who say it doesn’t matter how many civilians die in the bombings.
Someone said: My prediction — as soon as Topalov ties the score, Kramnik will do everything possible to sabotage the match.
There is no need for Kramnik to sabotage the match. He has a legal way to approach. The organizers have violated the written contract about this match to Kramnik’s disfavor.
Another biased article in Chessbase. Seirawan says that the appeal comitee could not make a desicion because only on arbiters desicions they are allowed to comment. That is false. I copy from the regulations of the match:
“The Appeals Committee may decide on the following matters:
a) an appeal against a decision by an arbiter,
b) a protest against a player’s behaviour,
c) a complaint alleging false interpretation of the regulations,
d) a request for the interpretation of specific regulations,
e) a protest or complaint against any participant, or
f) all other matters which the Committee considers important.”
Ofcourse people need to remeber that Kramnik-Fritz match is sceduled after the WC and it would be nice for chessbase and fritz to have Kramnik as a world champion…
Fide preferred 3-1 to 3-2 for a simple reason. Topalov legally is right… So they better have Kramnik than Topalov suing.
Fide preferred 3-1 to 3-2 for a simple reason. Kramnik is right… But, FIDE President Ilyumzhinov and Topalov’s manager Danilov are drinking buddies, so what else could he do but find Kramnik innocent of all misconduct, and thus the Appeals Committee to have acted against the match conditions and so fire them, and finally make it right with Kramnik by giving a point to Danilov’s boy, Topalov.
This is why the Kramnik will win, he let the Three Stooges, Ilyumzhinov, Danilov, and Topalov overplay their hand, and now he will rake in the chips.
And wisely, Susan and others who realize what is unfolding, stay neutral.
It’s unbelievable how incompetent is Kramnik’s manager and Kramnik himself outside the chessboard: after mishandling the issue of a formal protest after the forfeit, now they’re doing their best for hit and alienate even more Kirsan that is the owner of the Fide and can turn the tables when he likes, besides supporting even more Danailov: they had to shut up and taking action *after* the match was concluded, now they have worsened even more their ugly situation.
Kramnik’s team could have worded a few things a bit better at various points, true.
Topalov on the other hand has claimed a point on the basis his opponent used the toilet often in another game.
It is like comparing the sins of someone who shakes your hand a bit too firmly with those of someone who hacks at you with a knife.
We shouldn’t forget Prague, as well, when FIDE recognized Kramnik as the Classical Chess World Champion.
http://www.chessbase.com/newsdetail.asp?newsid=2744
Dante: He should be worried about FIDE because FIDE is organizing the match. Furthermore FIDE=Kirsan and Kirsan has the power to support Danailov to win the match with all sort of tricks (now a new provocation of Danailov stating Kramnik plays like (with) Fritz 9). But what should really worry Kramnik is that if Kirsan doesn’t wish to present Kramnik with $500.000 after all the attacks against the FIDE (him) he *can* do it and there no pre-agreement or court on the earth that will allow him to get the money.
Hmmm…perhaps we should put this in perspective:
Say the Appeals Committee (FIDE President Ilyumzhinov’s hand picked representative/agent) had the power to charge and find Kramnik guilty of a crime whose penalty is capital punishment. Kramnik knows the charges and subsequent sentence of death handed down by the Appeals Committee is completely unfounded so what shall he do? Allow the Appeals Committee to hang him before he can even plead his case? Of course not, Kramnik must withdraw (or put another way flee or hide) until the Appeals Committee is overturned. It is crucial that he remain ALIVE so he can appeal the committee’s decision.
In this case, Kramnik surely meant to withdraw indefinitely (completely) until the Appeals Committee’s judgement was overturned, which Ilyumzhinov did, except awarding game 5 to Topalov.
Thus, Kramnik is alive and justified suing to overturn Ilyumzhinov awarding game 5 to Topalov.
sorry I made a typo
I meant that europe>>>more corrupt than usa
I have seen, in several of the comments: “They play to win the money”. Obviously, the writers of this messages even did not know that, in this match, the two players will receive the same amount, regardless the result.