According to the FIDE website, game 6 with start tomorrow with the 3-2 score in favor of Kramnik.
If this is true then I believe that Topalov has committed an incredible off the board PR blunder. Even if Topalov is legally entitled to the forfeit win (I do not know the answer to this), he looks bad by accepting it. He is in a very difficult situation that was created by his manager.
By accepting this forfeit, he stands to lose in the court of public opinion. We shall wait until tomorrow to see if Kramnik will accept this condition. If he does, he will come out looking like a winner.
Chess Daily News from Susan Polgar
I’d like to know what were the other proposals that were rejected. It sounds like Kramnik refuses all compromises which I don’t think is fair at all. He has to give something. It’s not Topalov’s fault Kramnik won’t compromise. And Kramnik knows he can walk away with public opinion in his favor because he is leading the match. Topalov may have been willing to give up the point in exchange for a longer match. We don’t know yet. I don’t see how Topalov can be blamed when Kramnik wants it all.
Susan,
I disagree that Topa should give back the point. The point is not Topa here. The point is that “no body is above the game’s rules and laws”.
BTW, what was so crippling that day that Kramnik did not show up for the match ? He could have given a letter just like what topa did on the decision and went on with the game.
Kramnik is behaving like a cheapo here.
So, take away points, scores, topa the ethics of the game here is: when there is a match scheduled and the opponent is waiting for you you go and play. Kramnik still had a bathroom that day and no one said he cannot go there they just wanted him to share with topa.
Topalov has suffer too much from danailov’s greed.It ‘s not for the future , it’s ever done! Topalov is viewed like a rat like danailov…all around the world, and he ‘s pointed first because danailov is supposed to be his employee!! what a farce!!
Topalov missed his chance to behave like a champion , first by not showing who is the boss of his team, and for his conduct during the 5th game, by taking a free point whereas there was a argument originated by his manager!
It ‘s not Kramnik who have the need to act as a champion, he showed it all the last week long, by playing the games, by being there during the trial to save the match.
So, the End, Fide his terminated for me, so would be topalov if he participated to this clownery tomorrow.
I do hope that Kramnik plays. I believe that he is, both morally and in chess, the better player after all.
Topalov should include his victory over Kramnik in game 5 to his Best Games collection heavily analysed. What a shame!
I don’t believe Kramnik will accept the free point to Topalov. The way it stands now, I think Kramnik will simply find that enough is enough and that he doesn’t really need this match.
That might be the end of not only the match but FIDE, too. The chess world would simply start ignoring such an organization. Who could take it seriously any longer?
Supposedly, Kramnik received offers to have 3-1 with the stipulation that he would have to play additional games (1st offer 4 games additional, 2nd offer 2 games additional). I think that he refused because he felt safe the Russian federation was backing him up.
If I were Kramnik, I’d accept the blunder made in not accepting the initial (supposed) offers and play anyway at 3-2 and try to win anyway. Kramnik would gain so much respect and acknowledgement if he did.
And finally even Susan Polgar wakes up from her pink dream of ‘all sides are to blame – even some more than others’.
I and other commentators here have already told you in the beginning that it’s all a big setup (yes even in life you see the same kind of combinations reappearing again and again) and that Topalov would probably get away with the full point or Kramnik will lose the match.
Only now when it’s obvious that this is really happening you come with this message….. Kinda naieve you could have seen this comming from miles!
Hopefully this is all part of the negotiations:
1. Kirsan announces the match will resume tomorrow with the score 3:2.
2. Topalov refuses to take the forfeit win.
This is the only way Topalov can save face.
Susan you are an amazing hyprocrite. You have supported Topalov. You have supported that they should work it out.
You totally opposed a solution based on doing the right thing.
Now that the players decided you as a hypocrite again change your mind and try to make it look like you wanted to support doing the right thing.
Stand up Susan. tell the truth. You are a hypocrite. I am almost as discusted with you as I am with Topalov.
When Topalov won in San Luis you supported Topalov. so I supported you by supporting Topalov.
then Topalov acts like an abusive crook and you support him. well and good. but now you act like you did not support him.
Bye Susan. No more support from me. I will tell all the moms that you accept abuse and advise their children not to play in tournaments with you because you will allow Sam Sloan into those tournaments endangering the children. You are NOT capable of distinguishing right from wrong.
I have always been a 100% Supporter of yours. NO LONGER. your critics have been correct. you are impossible.
Now I am really angry with you.
go listen to all your anonymous posters.
good bye.
I agree with with your last assessment Susan. Game over – Kramnik will not yield game 5. Some readers say he should give something up/negotiate – why? – he has not instigated this mess and I can understand why he is not inclined to lower himself into the mudpit of dishonour that Team Topalov has created. Unfortunately this World Championship Match has been tainted. The only way the stain of dishonour can be removed is if Kramnik continues and wins it. Unhappily I doubt I will be proved wrong.
If Topalov agrees to take the point for game 5, he loses big time regardless of the result of his chess match.
If he wins the match, his title will tainted for all time.
If he loses, Kramnik will be crowned a Hero.
If Kramnik defaults again, then Topalov will carry the blame for destroying the reputation and credibility of professional chess.
I do not think Topa should get or take the point.Points should be earned OVER THE BOARD and not by politics, but it looks like a lot of people have blundered on this one.
FWCC
Future World Chess Champion
Very good last minute commentary on chesspro (for russian speaking)
Tonight Kirsan faced a choice.
3-1 and Topalov forfeits.
3-‘2’ and Kramnik forfeits.
When has Kirsan ‘I never plan’ Ilyumzhinov cared for legal advice, and not just made it up as he goes along?
So he has decided to hand his paper title back to his cowardly puppet and Caissa’s most disgraced son, the cheat and liar Veselin Topalov.
But at least Kirsan has done so with a bit of cunning. By announcing his decision as if the match will still go ahead, he hopes some kind of blame will be shift to Kramnik when he defaults. Do I need point out that this is as equally transparent as it is immoral?
Btw, prior to this match FIDE was probably the second most hated thing in the chess world after short draws. Now Topalov is the lowest of the low, and unforgiveably so at that. Relegation to bronze medal in the hall of shame is at least some kind of unexpected coup for Kirsan.
This match is over. Kramnik has won it 3-1.
“Supposedly, Kramnik received offers to have 3-1 with the stipulation that he would have to play additional games (1st offer 4 games additional, 2nd offer 2 games additional). I think that he refused because he felt safe the Russian federation was backing him up.”
Besides that, a longer match benefits Topalov, because it gives him more opportunities to catch up. Also, due to his chronic illness, a longer match probably works to Kramnik’s detriment. Kramnik believed he was right, and shouldn’t have to help his opponent by extending the match.
I’m not sure if Kramnik is better off at +1 with 8 to play, or +2 with 10 to play. But on principle, Kramnik seems to have felt that the rules shouldn’t change after the match has begun.
The ideal outcome is that Kramnik shows up tomorrow, and kicks Topalov’s butt over the remaining eight games. I didn’t start out a Kramnik fan, but poetic justice here is that Topalov should lose the match. Kramnik was wrong to lose a game by forfeit, but Team Topalov was even more wrong to raise such a petty complaint.
The problem wasn’t the complaint, it was the complaint ANDcooperation with the Fide officials to destroy the match deliberately which disgusts the chess world
Marc – the ideal is Kramnik leaves and FIDE collapses totally, surely.
I for one do not want Kramnik to turn up. He has won. FIDE and Topalov have not only lost, but to me they are lost forever.
You are correct about poetic justice, though.
Sunshine,
I accept that Ms. Susan Polgar had sounded pro-Topalov and anti-Kramnik ever since San Louis (For this we can read the Blog archive).
She had also plugged this Blog website both on ICC and Playches,com capitalizing on the championship occasion and then when the toilet issue came out, might have acted in an elitist intellectual way ” of taking no side as to who is right and wrong.
Yes, she does sound against Topalov now that he did not allow Kramnik to resume the game 5 and that (only presumably) her anonymous bloggers had started to pressure her being somewhat biased etc (But I really do not know about this…)
Yet, Sunshine, what do you really expect from a person who has done everything she could to promote chess by sacrificing literally everything in her life. She lives for nothing but chess. Although she is otherwisenor normal like us, having the same needs and wants and what not, her devotion to promoting the game of chess has been always sincere. What more can we expect?
Yes, she is the great woman’s world champion and so forth, but is also a flesh and blood human being too.
Expecting perfection from her (or anyone else for that matter) and imposing the statement like “I have been “100%” supportive of you before” on her only makes you sound like an abusive maniac or a psycopathic stalker in the name of a chess fan.
Who is being abusive now, Sunshine?
Start searching for the truth for the next 40 days for Ms. Susan Polgar?
Ha! Are you mad or something, Sunshine? It is all thanks to Susan that we can express our trivial personal views like this in her ches blog.
She even chose to respond to a rude, perverted, maniac person like you on the internet all for the sake of chess.
Give her some respect! Of course, we are all imperfect. But we make the best out of it. Live with it!
Enough! Too much!
William, London
If Topolov wasn’t the type of player who would accept the free point, he wouldn’t have let his team raise a stink. Take a look at the smug grins on their faces when Topa ‘won’ game 5. They’re getting away with it, and they’re proud of it.
To be found at veselintopalov.net:
“It will take place tomorrow… or it won’t. Mr. Kramnik and his manager were very firm on their position the match to restart from game 5. On Saturday the manager of Topalov, Silvio Danailov, stepped aside from some of his requests . However, the issue with the score was unsolved. Non of the sides wanted to make a compromise and they both have their reasons. Mr. Danailov claims that this is a decision made by a legitimate, at the time, comittee. The manager of Mr. Kramnik claims that the commission was not legitimate from the beginning.
Now a new commission has been appointed. It has been approved by both teams. And to start from game 6 is a decision that the new commission and the president of FIDE have taken. This time any of the players not appearing at the board will have serious concequences.
All questions that the new press release rises will be answered tomorrow 15:00 local time.”
This man is a bad joke!
Anonymous ~ Topalov is indeed a bad joke.
But what else has the title of FIDE World Champion ever been since 1993?
Agree with you Susan, Topalov is playing a really bad move here if he insists on the forfeit.
Agree with you Susan, Topalov is playing a really bad move here if he insists on the forfeit.
Regardless of the outcome, Topalov has ruined his reputation in one grotesque weekend. I sincerely hope Kramnik shows up with the one-game 3-2 lead and kicks Topalov’s sorry ass all over the 64 squares. (I was rooting for Topalov coming into the match.)
I expect the match is all over, but who knows what is going on in Kramnik’s camp? I hope Kramnik realizes at this point he CANNOT lose! If Topalov comes back and wins, it is because of the forfeit cheapo “win” and all the turmoil and what it did to his obviously superior confidence at the time of the accusations. If he wins, he did so in spite of all this and is the undisputed World Chess Champion! Regardless, Topalov comes out of all this smelling like a poor-sport rat.
Mike D.
P.S. — Several of you “anonomous “bloggers slamming Susan have gotten most of your facts and arguments wrong. I would hope you could disagree without throwing yourselves into frothing-at-the-mouth hysterics. I personally think Susan has been clear and consistent in her statements throughout, and has done nothing but encourage all this silliness to be worked-out and the match resumed. If you disagree, fine, but knock off the sophmoric name calling and insane charges of bias. And try to show a bit of respect toward a great GM who is giving you UNPRECEDENTED access to her time and opinions when you write here.
ATTN SUSAN: PLEASE TRANSLATE THIS RUSSIAN LINK:
I’ve been told that it reports that Kramnik has agreed to play tomorrow.
http://www.interfax.ru/r/B/politics/2.html?id_issue=11596772
newportnexus, all well said! Topalov and team, please, please take note of the sorry situation of continuing with 3-2 score!
I agree with Mike D that Susan is not at fault.
I agree her opinion has been at fault several times (and several times not.) But she is entitled to it, and I for one amd glad she has shared it.
I do apologise that some of my language to describe Susan was inappropriate.
I only wanted to suggest that I understood that she sounded biased depending on one’s perspctive.
I do personally think she has been pretty fair and consitent, too.
I am sorry if I sounded a bit hot-headed. I only wantd to emphathise that Susan has been doing everything to save chess from the beginning.
I really respect and agree with newportnexus’s comment too.
Again I am sorry if I sounded a bit rude.
William London
My “two cents” on the SUNSHINE comments in this post:
Susan Polgar has done nothing but show that she is a great ambassador for the game of chess.
Her efforts and activity in the chess community (from kids to grandmasters) should be constantly applauded, as chess is a severly under advertised and under appreciated game.
She gives honest opinions in an arena that is difficult to remain neutral and is even more difficult to please everyone.
I doubt that anyone does more for the game of chess than Susan Polgar. I for one, am a big fan of her efforts and will always support her and her websites in any way that I can.
Thanks for everything you do Susan and keep up the OUTSTANDING work.
Kevin Marchese
Rook House Owner
posted by anonym, Sunday, October 01, 2006 6:41:16 PM
http://www.interfax.ru/r/B/politics/2.html?id_issue=11596772
NO! It doesn’t state Kramnik will play tomorrow. Although the header is “Kramnik and Topalov agreed to continue at 3-2”, if you read the text carefully, there is nothing about Kramnik’s decision. I translate:
“After negotiations with Kramink one hour ago and with Topalov right now I (Ilyumzhinov) decided – tomorrow is the sixth game. Of course, it will start with the score 3:2. At 15:00 Moscow time the Head Referee Mr. Geissen will start the clock” – the FIDE President said…
So, you see: the referee will be there, the clock too, but Kramnik?
How low can a person sink in terms of ethics and morality? First Topalov started the very immature finger pointing blame game without any concrete evidence. This in and of itself may not have been so bad if it weren’t public but taken up with the committee as something to look into. No, he decides to release this information to the public. Next, he decides that he does not want to shake hands with his opponent and will not participate in joint press conferences. As if this wasn’t low enough, he happily (as seen in photos after game 5) signs the scoresheet in the 5th game as the winner by forfeit. This should have been the end of his sinking. He was given a chance to take a breath out of the waters of bad ethics and fair play but he decides to go to even deeper waters by negotiating a game 6 start that includes his forfeit win!
At this point it doesn’t really matter if he wins the championship and is crowned the World Champion. Chess fans and history will certainly not be kind to Topalov. Given his behavior, I don’t think he really cares.
Hahaha! There is another great joke from Ilyumzhinov: “There was no appeal from the Kramnik team concerning the result of the fifth game. According to the rules it should have been done not later than 2 hours after the end of the game.”
WHAT A FARCE!
The WC is NOT (certainly SHOULD not) be determined in the “court of public opinion”. If YOU want to be truly impartial, stand back and let the decisions be made. It helps NOT AT ALL to voice an opinion one way or the other regarding a FIDE decision… …unless you support one side or the other. Your comment betrays your alliance in this situation, unfortunatly.
N2H4
You’re comment betrays your alliegance to Topalov.
Topalov’s team made the WC issue public and it is now open for all to discuss. It was a bad and unethical move and should very much be discussed by the public and chess fans at large. The chess fans are the ones who care!
There is NO chance that Kramnik will be there if the score is 3-2
He has absolutely nothing to gain and everything to lose. He is now the World Champion of Chess , no reason for him to risk that now unless he believes that Topalov is incapable of winning a game against him.
I find it very hard to believe that Topalov will get a dime from sponsors who paid for a lot more than 4 games.
Thanks Kevin. The bottom line is IF I say something that slightly favors Kramnik, Topalov’s fan will scream and accuse me of being bias. If I do the opposite, Kramnik’s fan will scream and accuse me of the same thing.
I have left those remarks up without deleting them. Everyone is entitled to disagree with me. No one can possibly with me 100%. I just hope that everyone would be more tolerant to other views.
I have known these two WCs for a long time. I also know Danailov for years. I want to see the best player win. I have no stake in this whatsoever.
Danailov has a very strong personality. Very few if any can bully him. There was no need for anyone to fuel his fire further.
In addition, people come to this blog to find out about my opinion, not the opinion of what others wanting me to say.
I state things as I see them but I do not want to get involved in the mud slinging war. The chess world already suffers enough with this mentality. I may be wrong and I may be right. That’s life. I can only offer my best.
More people need to sit back, chill out and let things run its course once in a while. Nothing you or I say will change Kramnik or Topalov’s minds.
I just hope both will come to their senses and play this match out.
Best wishes,
Susan Polgar
http://www.SusanPolgar.com
Kirsan should not have accepted the resignation of the appeals committee.
He should step down himself.
There is no way in the world that the committee did not contact him and get his approval before they destroyed the world championship of chess.
email??
Text message??
phone call????
He should be impeached if he can’t be contacted during the most important match in years
Susan, it is wonderful and even exciting that you’re reading our comments. I hope you don’t feel the need to respond to bozos who talk mean to you. Most rational people can detect when others are being inconsiderate, and if they can’t detect it, then they are probably bozos too. 🙂
Anyways, thanks for your blog (and for advertising it…I found out about it on playchess.com while watching one of the games). It is entertaining, and I appreciate that you actually take the time to read and respond to some posts. That is great for most of us chess fans to think that a GM is actuallly reading what we write. Thanks.
Just keep doing everything just the way you have been and don’t worry about the small handful of detractors, they will be negative no matter what you do. Unfortunately, that is the way of the world.
I am very interested to see how everything pans out tomorrow morning. I hope to see a Game # 5 instead of a Game # 6. I just think it’s the right thing to do.
Certainly makes for good “theater”.
Take Care,
Kevin
It’s not Topalov’s fault if Kramnik refused to play the 5th game.
Kramnik has committed a fault, and has been punished for it, when, according to the rules, the referee gave Topalov one point for Kramnik’s forfeit.
During the Fisher-Spasky match in 1972, Spasky received a point after Fisher’s forfeit in the 2nd game, and this point wasn’t canceled.
I had thought the “Toilet Variation” was only a whimsical name for the line 1.e4 c5 2.f4 d5 3.Nc3. I had not realized it was also a way to win a world championship match after trailing by two games. This is surely a very important theoretical novelty!
Thanks! I do read each and every post. It is time consuming but if you take the time to write, the least I can do is read them 🙂
I also refuse to make this into a commercial blog with commercial links. This blog is meant for the chess fans.
Whether people agree with me or not, I hope I at least can bring news and information as well as first hand opinion from a chess professional.
Best wishes,
Susan Polgar
http://www.SusanPolgar.com
It seems that Kramnik, even with a 2 points lead, is afraid of Topalov who dominated him so clearly in the 2 first games…
He is trying to put the blame on Topalov for his own decisions, and to have the match cancelled, like did Karpov in his first match against Kasparov, in 1984 and 1985, when he became afraid that Kasparov would beat him.
Same old russian trick.
What’s the talk of compromise all about? Topalov’s team created a strom out of nothing, and when they simply back off to original conditions, they get praised for compromise.
Apparently, Kramnik’s team did not submit an official protest right after the 5th game, so Ilumzhinov did not have legal reasons to cancel the score of 3-2 without Topalov’s consent. This seems like a major oversight of Kramnik’s manager.
The idea of extending the match to 14 or 16 games was initially rejected by Kramnik, but later Danailov also rejected it, at least according to the blogs and articles of journalists in Elista.
Kramnik may play. Svidler and Bareev are arriving in Elista. Probably not to help him pack, but to help play on.
What a shameful mess. Where’s the talk of unification now? Whatever the outcome of the match, there will be no peace in the chess community.
“I state things as I see them but I do not want to get involved in the mud slinging war. “
Why did you publicly attack Mr. Kramnik then?
Why did you accuse him of deliberately provoking Topalov with his toilet visits. Why did you divert blame using this baseless accusation, you invented yourself.
You say you don’t like mud slinging, but you threw mud at Mr. Kramnik. You say you don’t like conclusions that are reached without knowing the full facts, yet you concluded, without knowing any facts, that it was all a deliberate ploy by Kramnik to provoke Topalov.
Before you can reply to this question, and before you will possibly apologize to Mr. Kramnik, you will be seen as a hypocrite by many (not as a hypocrite generally, but on this issue definitely).
OK. I will now stop repeating this. But I know that many people think the same. This is not the only place where your blog is discussed.
And people.. don’t see things in white/black. She is a great chess person, strongly disagreeing with her here is just that. And nothing more.
http://video.google.com/ videoplay ?docid= 8110762384845644778 &q= david%2Bshenk&hl=en
Paul Marshall was Bobby Fischer’s lawyer during Spassky-Fischer 1972. From the above 36 minutes video documentary (remove URL blanks):
“I had learned that once you start a world championship, you may never change the conditions of play. So they put back the fixture; I demanded they restore the house flies.”
Arbiter Geurt Gijssen blundered by starting the game 5 clock. Gijssen should have removed the clock instead.
Even the best arbiters (and players) occasionally blunder. This particular timing really hurts tho.
Bessel Kok says Gijssen made a “mistake” by starting the game 5 clock.
Gene Milener
http://CastleLong.com/
Anonymous said…
Why did you publicly attack Mr. Kramnik then?
Susan didn’t attack Kramnik. She was asked if it could be a ploy to annoy his opponent during match play since he did that to Kasparov as well. She said yes, it is possible. She never said he did. You manipulated the story by giving only 50% of the truth. Shame on you. Give it a rest. If you don’t like what she says then why come here? You should apologize to her.
mag? Just to correct you, she said she thinks it was a ploy by Kramnik. Tasteless accusation. You should see people in more colors than just white and black.
anon, that was what I saw. She was kind enough to give her time to answer questions from everyone. She said it’s possible that it’s a ploy. You can’t convince me of your 50% of the truth.
Sunshine, please apologize to all, if you haven’t already.
I think that Kramnik can not accept the loss of game 5 because it was played (attempt of being played) out of the standard established by the contractual clauses. The individual toilet is one of the clauses that were not respected by FIDE that changed the rule, closing it, without consulting the other party.
This was a serious mistake of the Committee.
I think also Topalov has been psychologically influenced by his responsibility as the top player and by his score against the opponent.
Meanwhile, he has played some very strong moves and did leave the win escapes in second game and could draw the first one.
For a while, I don’t believe Kramnik is a cheater, this would ruin his shining career.
Topalov needs to control himself to show us that he deserves the top in the podium.
Don’t forget that Russians linked with Kramnik’s team accused Topalov, at the beginning of the match, of cheating during the San Luis WCC (in fact they accused him of having a chip put in his brain after surgery…).
So, it’s not Topalov’s team that started the fraud accusation…
Ms. Polgar, thank you for your blog and for sharing your thoughts and opinion on the controversy! I do not completely agree with everything you have written, but I appreciate your thoughtfulness and the time you’ve spent on the games and the controversy.
Hang in there and have fun in Philadelphia!
Well, the good part about this latest case study of how conflicts escalate to the total-war level is that nobody is really shooting or setting off real bombs yet. So it’s frustrating to watch, but at least there won’t be a real body count.
A few days ago chess fans were mostly hoping to find a way in which the match could go on. Now there is a significant section of the Kramnik fan pool that has gone past that. They think that defending the rightness of Kramnik’s position before the world is more important than seeing any more chess games take place. I read more and more calls for Kramnik to just walk out of Elista. More and more people say that Kramnik should walk away and declare himself to be the champion EVEN IF Ilyumzhinov and Topalov were to give in on the game 5 issue. Every five minutes someone escalates the rhetoric: Topalov should be driven out of chess, nobody should ever play him again, he is scum, he is filth, he will be spoken of with contempt for as long as humans play chess on this fragile globe. I haven’t yet seen anyone equate Topalov with Hitler, Osama bin Laden, or Judas Iscariot, but I am confident that these are all on their way.
Meanwhile a more moderate section of Kramnik supporters and chess statespeople are trying to persuade FIDE and/or Topalov to give back the point. [Note that these have different interests and powers. I am not sure that GM Topalov COULD decide that game 5 will be just be replayed. The FIDE apparatus might not be willing to accept the idea that someone can refuse to play a WC game and get away completely without penalty. For Topalov, giving back the point might mean that he would have to forfeit game 6 unilaterally, which is an option but which would put the score to 4-2, not 3-1.]
But while the “moderate” Kramnik supporters are attempting to negotiate with Team Topalov saying things like “show your true honorable character by not accepting the game 5 point”, the “radical” Kramnik supporters are drowning them out, in this venue and others, shouting, “Topalov has no honorable character! We hate him forever! He is damned and outcast! Kramnik shouldn’t stoop to playing another game under the filthy auspices of FIDE! We don’t want any more games! Kramnik is the champion right now!”
I don’t know how much effect ANY of this discussion on the Internet is really having – maybe they all have their browsers turned off and are ignoring all this, and I almost hope so! Because if GM Topalov IS reading what is being said on line, he is getting the clear message that the people who hate him now will hate him no matter what he does. And once you declare that you are someone’s eternal enemy no matter what he does, you have no more bargaining power, no more power to persuade. If people are going to make eternal war on Topalov no matter what he does, there’s not any incentive for him to make concessions on the game 5 forfeit, or on any future matters, is there? This is OK with the Kramnik radicals, who will be happy if Kramnik never sits at the same table with Topalov again, but it’s not what the rest of us want.
This is how political conflict escalates into total war. This is how people like GM Susan Polgar, who are trying to write about this in an even-handed way, get pilloried as traitors and enemies, because in the time of total war there is no tolerance for even-handedness, only an open-ended competition to show how enthusiastically you hate the other side. It brings back memories of watching academics getting saved by right-wing talk show hosts during the post-9/11 period for suggesting that we might want to understand WHY someone would want to blow up our buildings full of people.
By the way, lest we lose all perspective here, Topalov hasn’t blown up any buildings. At most, he authorized his manager to issue a complaint that resulted in a bathroom being temporarily closed. If people are THIS angry about a chess match, it’s hard to imagine how they act during arguments about wars, presidential elections, police powers, and so on, which are really important!!
SUNSHINE…you are one Vindictive Disturbed Person to say what you did about Susan Polgar but to say that kids are in danger around her just shows how Disturbed you are..Susan is more than a World Champion she is a great person with a very fair sense of balance
“Ieroidavid” said:
“Topalov won his points by beating the best chess players in San Luis WCC and in the super-tournaments he participated in.
He has earned his points exactly like all chess players do: by playing. So, he has nothing to do to show that he deserves his rating and his first place”.
Yes, but I´m going to use my friend response about the match:
Both players are truely excellent.
Nothing wrong with Topalov’s play except he has to learn that one can’t just run over an equal.
In any individual game it is a tossup. In a match Kramnik has a definite edge because he plays matches not individual games.
Topalov has a parapsychologist on his team.
It doesn’t seem as effective as it was on Korchnoi
Kudos to Susan, for not deleting posts or blocking posters who have insulted her. Many blogs are quicky edited of any negative comments toward the blogger, but Susan has displayed true courage- no wonder she wins at Chess!
Doug from Seattle, WA
theodulf, what in the world are you trying to say? Your rhetoric is over the top. There are “radicals” on both sides of the fence saying stupid things. You are minimizing what Topalov and his team have done while condemning Kramnik and his team. Is it perhaps obvious where you stand? Kramnik playing “toilet games”? Do you really think he knew that they would pass those videos on to Topalov’s team, and if so, why? What would he want them to think he was cheating?? This just makes absolutely no sense.
Kramnik may have been wrong, on some level, for walking away from game 5, but had he not, one could claim a possible psychological advantage for Topalov in having had things changed in his favor (ie. the bathroom situation). This is playing mind games, and it is hard for me to fault Kramnik for not wanting to play with the feeling that Topalov had “bested” him and made him look the fool by not shaking his hand or appearing in press conferences with him. Can you and the other rabid Topalov supporters not see this obvious and unfair psychological advantage?
If Topalov is truly reading the opinions out there, then he will realize that even some who originally wanted him to win are changing their minds over the juvenile WC tactics to gain him back a “free” point without having to play. This is the reason that things will be bad for him if he does not accept to go back to 3-1 as is only fair. Rules are “guidelines”, but when rules make no sense for a particular situation, they should be modified. It only makes sense for Topalov to give up a point not earned by his on-the-board wit, otherwise, he will most definitely go down as a loser to many in spite of the possibility of his winning.
However, should he do the more sportsmanlike thing and give back the unearned point, then if he wins he has much more claim and can even say that he gave back the point and still won in spite of the circumstances he perceives himself to be going through.
Oh, brother… If they don’t play tomorrow, I say the whole match should just be cancelled. I don’t think either of this chess players will be on my top watch list after that. I would rather see them both fall in the rankings and see some real chess sportsmen come to the board!
anonymous 8:39:40 – Now I’m a “rabid Topalov supporter” supposedly. “You’re either with us or against us.” Of course this is exactly what I was writing about. Thanks for the illustration! 🙂 B
y the way, why don’t the anonymous posters make up some consistent handle so that we don’t have to say “I disagree with anonymous; I think anonymous had a better take on things.”?
FULL INTERVIEW
The truth behind the events in Elista · Oct 2, 01:03 AM
The continuation of the Wcc 2006 match is not sure after the press release by FIDE a few hours ago. However, we are not really sure what has happened in these meetings and what are the “non-press release” reasons for the scandal.
Mr Silvio Danailov throws some light on the events in an interview for the Bulgarian newspaper Standart . The original article is much longer than the English version
Here we offer you a translation of the conversation. The interview is probably a phone call, that is why the communication is not very smooth. It explains some strange things around the scandal, but at the same time rises a lot of new questions. Expect a detailed analysis of Mr. Silvio Danailov’s words.
– Will there be a match tomorrow?
– Yes, there must be. It is an order from higher political circles in Russia
-*What does that mean?*
– By all means there must be a game, if not it will be bad for the image of Russia
-*How much time did the negotiations continue last night?*
– A lot. We decided the bathrooms problem. We let Kramnik keep the one he wants. However, it will be inspected by our people. Rooms will not be changed, every player has it’s own. For Kramnik is the bigger one because he likes to walk a lot. There will be audio and video vigilance in the rooms. One arbiter is assigned just for that. The question is decided.
Now the question is about the score. There is a lot of pressure on us the game to continue from 3:1. But how can we accept this since all our actions were according to the law? We just sent a protest declaration to the appeals committee because strange things were happening. 9 hours the video records have been revised and 5 people decided that there is something wrong. Nobody ever said that there was something (red. meaning a device or other type of aid). But it was very strange. We had a meeting with the FIDE president and Mr. Kramnik was very arrogant.
-*Arrogant?*
– Well, yes, he believes that he has political support behind his back. I asked him, “Why don’t we change the toilet?” and he answered, “Because I can do whatever I want. I decided about this toilet and you cannot tell me what to do.” The new one that was offered to him was 4 meters away from the playing area. I told him, “You are a chess player, you have to be more on the scene.” Mr. Kramnik cannot be away most of the time. He answered, “This is my right, I can do whatever I want.” He behaved as a man with a lot of support, as if everybody was doing what he orders.
-*Do you believe Mr. Kramnik has a health problem?*
– No, we know each other for 20 years. He claims that he needs to go to the toilet 30 times per game. But in the airplane from Moscow both delegations traveled together for two hours and then we were 3 hours around Elista. Five hours he did not step in the toilet.
-*Probably it is the pressure during the games and it is different*
– No matter how worried you are, you can go 5-10 times, not 30. We asked doctor Mihail Iliev, the doctor of the soccer national team, and he said that the only case is that Kramnik has problems with the prostate. First, he is too young and it is not probable that he has such. And if you know that you have such a problem and an important match is to come you have to find some solution.
When a man goes out of the toilet he washes his hands and does typical movements. There is no such a thing with Mr. Kramnik and it is obvious from the video. Inside there is a screen with the game on it. What does Kramnik do? He talks to himself and watches it. He gets an idea and goes to the toilet. He stays for a minute and goes out. Than he goes in again.
One more time I insist, there is no proof that he gets outside help, but his behavior is more than strange.
-*You made a compromise with the bathroom. What do you expect from their side?*
– Nothing, just the game to go on. There is an official score. For example if Levski and Chealsea play and the English team decides to stay in the locker rooms, the referree will blow the whistle and the score will be 3:0. Imagine now that Chealsea decides that they want to fire the whole appeals commission of UEFA and replay the game two days after? If they say that the score is 3:1 we quit. We did everything possible the match to continue. However, one man tries to play with FIDE with his childish requests.
-*People say this is the biggest scandal in the history of chess?*
– For sure a bigger scandal was the game between Krochnoi and Karpov, maybe Spaski and Fisher. These are matches with a lot of interest, but the times were different. The fun things were less, especially in countries like Bulgaria and Russia. The match should continue, it will be a shame if it doesn’t. We are the first that want the match to go on, but it is not simple.
-*What do you think about the definition “WC match”?*
– It is good that everybody around the world talks about chess. As an American friend of mine says, “Even the bad ad is an ad”. There is great interest and if the match continues it will be a good promotion for chess, no matter if people connect it with the WC. People will remember the Topalov-Kramnik game was different.
-*Do you have any other contracts, besides the one for the match?*
– The people I work with are above money at this time. The sums that are in the Wcc are not big. All of us believe that the match can make a revolution in professional chess. And if the Grand Slam becomes reality it will be great.
-*What is the opinion of Topalov?*
– Veselin has great desire to play, but he is disturbed by the behavior of Kramnik. As I said, we know him for 20 years and he has never behaved like that. Besides, he did not even greet Veselin in the 5th game. He was offended to wait an hour on the board while Kramnik was relaxing in his room.
-*Will Topalov shake hands with Kramnik?*
– We will see. For sure he does not want to give press conferences with him. Kramnik was very arrogant to him. Besides, he was constantly offering him draws and making him nervous. Maybe a handshake in the name of fairplay will be present.
-*Kramnik wants a written excuse from you*
– This is childish and he will not receive one. There is nothing to apologize about. In Russia and around the world his family and friends made a PR campain against us. They called us cheaters. Then the public opinion formed. He plays his own games but the trick will not work.
-*Russian journalists ask how you understood he goes to the bathroom*
– There are records and our technical experts requested them. The referee did not say much, except that he has noticed the fact. Even people that do not play chess noticed the fact that when Kramnik comes out of the toilet he plays almost immedeately. That is not normal and we requested the records.
-*The manager of Kramnik claims he likes to drink a lot of water and walk around.*
– The “likes to drink water” part is not true. For 5 hours he drank half a cup. “Did you even see that?” Kramnik asked me. Yes, and it is on the records. Regarding the walks, he enters in the toilet and closes the door. The toilet is a very small place and he spends a lot of time there.
-*Kremlin is behind Kramnik. Do you feel alone in the battle?*
– The vice premier of Russia, Alexander Zhukov, said that the match should continue with score 3:1. He is a politician and, besides, he should be neutral since he is a part of the organizing comittee. I believe it is not a bad idea Bulgarian politicians to show some support because we are under a lot of pressure.
Dear Susan,
I do not agree with you defending Topalov somehow,
but I still would like to say thanks for your blog and all the work you are putting into it.
Commercial free!
Back to the match:
One thing we should not forget is that
the big, big mistake by the arbiter to allow the clocks to start for game 5 is the real deal breaker right now.
It is now difficult for fide to overthrow an arbiter decision.
Still despite this horrible blunder by the organizers the bad guys are Topalov and Danailov.
Look at the pictures Topa smiling when getting his forfeit win.
Look at Danailov throwing mud at Kramnik even now. “arrogant, insulting etc….”
isn’t it Danailov who is arrogant and insulting?
And the sad thing in the end their jerk behaviour will bring them success. Very sad.
I will still support your blog even if I do not understand your defence of Danailov.
Chris
For team Topalov, this chess match was about the money, and they got desperate when the score was 3-1.
Rules & regulations for the World Chess Championship Match 2006
3.11.2 If a player <...> conducts himself in a manner contrary to the spirit of sportsmanship or the FIDE Code of Ethics
Topa couldn’t win a game on board… what a sport!
FIDE Code of Ethics
2.2.3 Organizers, tournament directors, arbiters or other officials who fail to perform their functions in an impartial and responsible manner.
How difficult is it to read the match regulations?
2.2.4 Failure to comply with normally accepted standards of courtesy and chess etiquette. Misbehavior of a personal nature which is generally unacceptable by normal social standards.
no handshake comes to mind, how did Team Topalov get those video tapes???
2.2.6 Players withdrawing from a tournament without valid reason or without informing the tournament arbiter.
Team Topalov threaten to leave match in the first letter, of course a BLUFF.
2.2.7 Gross or repeated violations of FIDE Laws of Chess or other approved tournament regulations.
FIDE made sure of that…
2.2.8 <...>Players are responsible for the actions of acknowledged members of their delegations.
Topalov is responsable for Danailov’s actions.
2.2.9 Players or members of their delegations must not make unjustified accusations toward other players,…
Team Topalov didn’t think Kramnik cheated… what mattered was getting Kramnik off balance and the forfeited point!
2.2.11 Any conduct likely to injure or discredit the reputation of FIDE, its events, organizers, participants, sponsors or that will enhance the goodwill which attaches to the same.
Team Topalov went public with the letter…
Kramnik should walk out of this reality show now.
Chris,
Thanks for your comments. However, I do not understand why you say I defend Danailov. I have repeatedly said that I do not agree, accept or condone the tone and language of his letters. I don’t know how much more clear I can state this point.
What I defend is the integrity of the title and I wish that both sides would just stay quiet and play chess. The chess fans want to see them play, not their political spins and insults.
I in no way defend his words or actions. I have spent more than 30 years in chess and trying to conduct myself in an exemplary manner.
I just refuse to get into the finger pointing game for political reasons. Thank you for being honest.
Best wishes,
Susan Polgar
http://www.SusanPolgar.com
He did 200 times
Theodulf said: “Now I’m a “rabid Topalov supporter” supposedly.”
That was rhetoric like you were using against Kramnik supporters.
Theodulf said: “”You’re either with us or against us.” Of course this is exactly what I was writing about. Thanks for the illustration! 🙂 B”
In fact, it is funny that you are doing the same thing and don’t see it. You take Topalov’s side (which is obvious from the way in which your comments were worded), and then you imply that anyone who takes Kramnik’s side in this issue is somehow wrong and shouldn’t be complaining. You paint your own illustrations, but the problem is that they mirror your own arguments.
theodult said: “By the way, why don’t the anonymous posters make up some consistent handle so that we don’t have to say “I disagree with anonymous; I think anonymous had a better take on things.”?”
Because it is what I want to do and it is easy for me to just hit anonymous, and so that is what I will continue to do.
You know what’s bothering me?? Not that any will care … after reading hundreds of blathering posts regarding Topolov, Kramnik, Kirsan, Sloan, Polgar, Fischer, Kasparov, Bush, Sunshine, etc. etc. …
What’s bothering me is that people are attacking the poor ‘anonymous’ posters. Like myself, sort of.
I’ve always listed my name after my ‘anonymous’ posts, anyhow. Some of you may even know me from tournaments. So you know why I go ‘anonymous’?
It has nothing to do with any of the readers, or with Susan, or the subjects of my messages, or anything ‘sinister’. I tried going with the ‘Blogger’ option once, and I saw that it was going to be, for me, a nuisance. I just don’t feel like creating YET ANOTHER identity and password on YET ANOTHER website, bulletin board, blog, store, or whatever. What with a handful of other blogs, forums, Yahoo groups, Ebay, Amazon, etc., etc. I’m finding that I begin to lose track of all the names and passwords! I can’t tell you how many times I’ve had to select the ol’ ’email me my password’ option, besides having to create new ‘identities’ for sites when I forget the old one.
Perhaps there may be some, just some, of my fellow ‘anonymous’ posters who share my view. There is nothing sinister here, and I’m certainly not trying to hide. IT’S JUST A BIT EASIER THIS WAY – and that’s all there is too it.
And I stopped using my last name because I’ve seen that sometimes when my full name is ‘googled’ I will show up at various blogs. Well, perhaps I don’t want every stranger on Earth to be following each and every posted opinion I might write; especially, but not exclusively, the mischevious 8th grade students in the school in which I teach.
Still nothing sinister, folks. And nothing hidden. All on the up and up.
And this is my FIRST post here in over a month! After all that went on, nothing bothered me at all until certain individuals (and even Susan, on occasion) started attacking ‘anonymous’ just for BEING ‘anonymous’.
Attack the words written; not the writer.
Dan G.
I only know Danilov by what i read. He is a very smart man every time
Georgios Makropoulos:
” I would like to inform you of the decision of the Appeals Committee and the efforts of the Organisers and FIDE undertaken in order to provide ideal conditions for both teams.
Before the match we had long negotiations with Messrs. Hensel and Danailov. We thought that we managed to provide best conditions. After the arrival of the participants, new requirements were tabled, which fulfilled to the satisfaction of both delegations.
Both sides have undertaken considerable efforts in order to exclude any possibility of using any external assistance to the players. I would like to say that FIDE is not sharing any fears regarding use of external assistance during the games, but our opinion here is not important – we should meet the players halfway, in order them to feel comfortably at the board and not to be afraid for fair play.
This was exactly the reason why the glass screen appeared on the stage following the request of Mr. Hensel. It is not included in the contract, but we satisfied the request of Mr. Hensel. It is possible that the other side felt hurt, but no decisions of FIDE could satisfy both teams in 100%.
When the match started, we have received a declaration from the team of Topalov with the request to get acquainted with the video recording from the restrooms. The Organisers provided all the materials, and based on these materials the team of Topalov produced an appeal, where they noted that Kramnik visits the toilet in his restroom with an unusual frequency.
They requested to close the toilets and restrooms and also provide the accredited journalists with the video recordings. At the yesterday’s meeting of the Appeals Committee we watched all the video recordings. Only the third game was recorded in full. There are recordings of one hour and a half from the first and second games and there is a blank of one hour and a half in the recording of the fourth game. We have found out that the team of Topalov exaggerated the number of Kramnik’s visits to the toilet.
However, the numbers are still unusually high. In the video recording which we got hold of, Kramnik visited the toilet 25 times. In the third game the number is 18. In the first two games, in one hour and a half – 11 or 12 times.
I would like to reiterate that we have no connection between the number of the visits to the toilet and possible use of some external help. We have requsted Mr. Hensel to comment on these numbers and received the explanation to the tune that Vladimir uses the toilet space for walking. According to the opinion of the Appeals Committee, this explanation is unsatisfactory, as Kramnik was staying each time 1 or 2 minutes in the toilet.
Once again I repeat, for us the most important thing is for the both players to feel protected from the use of the external help by their respective opponent. For the first time we are facing such strong suspicions from both sides. I think here there is some partial fault of the journalists who were actively speculating on this topic before the World Championship. Of course when you read on a regular basis about this, that it is so easy to cheat, you start to get worried.
We spoke to President Kirsan Ilyumzhinov before taking a decision regarding the appeal of Topalov’s team and the FIDE President himself proposed to close the toilets in the restrooms.
The other points in the appeal of Mr. Topalov were declined by us. It is resolved not to close the restrooms – they are equipped by the video cameras and are well watched by the Chief Arbiter. It was not in our authority to provide the journalists with video recording, as we thought that this is a violation of the player’s right for privacy.
Further to this, we received open letters from both sides. I would like to share my opinion with you. According to the contract, FIDE shall provide both players with a restroom and a toilet. It is obvious for us that the contract is not binding us to provide the toilet in the restroom, otherwise the sentence would read “a restroom with a toilet”. Therefore, the appeal of Mr. Hensel regarding this point of the contract are groundless.
I think this will be a terrible mistake if this match would remain in the sports history as the match stopped because of the toilets… It is bad for FIDE, bad for Kalmykia, bad for the Russian Chess Federation and its President Mr. Zhukov who made efforts to organize this great match and it is just terrible for chess. I hereby strongly request both players to continue the match.”
Does the agreement about bathrooms allow Kramnik to be in a closed bathroom outside video surveillance? If so, could the following thing technically happen:
Kramnik takes a chip from his pocket, puts it into his ear and listens to it for some seconds?
I do NOT maintain that this is what really happens, but could this kind of doping be possible, if Kramnik would accept this kind of aid to himself before he makes his move decisions.
Pls, some one of you, reply!
besides that they are creating electronic noise to prevent such things from happening even in theory (or atleast I remember reading this), I think they also check them with metal detectors, but not sure about this one. Eitherway, even discussing cheating accusations for a split second is giving the topalov team some sort of justification which it doesn’t deserve by any means.
Why should Kramnik compromise? You know, there is an old joke:
Q: What is an easy way to make a man happy?
A: Do something wrong with him first and then put it back as it used to be
Kramnik is smart enough to see this kind of combination, so he would not be happy even if the match resumes at 3:1, although he would play in this case of course. After all these ‘compromises’ now what he has (that FIDE thinks would keep him happy) is:
1) An insult with no apologies
2) A lost point
3) Last but not least a lot of energy spent on this scandal
I would be very happy if he continues at 5:3, but I am pretty sure he won’t and I cannot blame him.
I’ve also thought about what Kramnik might be doing in the bathroom all those times …
Sure it’s possible he could put a chip in his ear, if that would help him.
As I understand it there are the following security measures:
1. Players are scanned with a metal-detector when they enter the hall.
2. Bathrooms are inspected before games. (This is one of the new conditions but I thought it was already the case! Maybe the new thing is that the opposing side does the inspection.)
3. Electromagnetic noise is broadcast around the playing hall to frustrate electronic communication to a player.
This doesn’t seem like enough. If one could re-package a Rybka in a plastic case of the type that diffuses the signal from a metal detector, rather than bouncing it back, you can get the chess computer in in your coat pocket.
Also I doubt that their electromagnetic jamming is adequate to stop a DIGITAL signal. Standard spy equipment should make it possible for a player to receive data in the bathroom. These players may well be supported by multi-million dollar budgets for such military gadgetry. (Unlike the US Open where it was strictly amateur stuff.) Then the player could view the transmission on a screen which probably requires less energy than powering an earpiece.
I think the only credible solution is to have these players monitored in the bathroom, even down to having a camera looking in the stall. Of course those pictures would be seen privately and erased two hours after the game unless something untoward had happened and/or the game result was protested.
Never in chess history a forfeited game was played again. This should not be done. The match score is 3-2 and should stay that way.
I also believe that Kramnik is behaving like an “old-cut” champion that likes to do everything he wants.
I really hope Topalov wins the match by a big margin. After that i am sure we wont see of Kramnik any time soon.
He can never win that “saint luis like” tournament, just manage a +1 score maybe at most
To whom wrote that Kramnik should quit the match: that would imply losing the $500.000 prize. Also he has been psychologically destroyed by all this issue due to the combined action of Danailov and the heads of the FIDE and I believe he’s going eventually to lose the match. Not a good situation for him.
From Alex post of Sunday, October 01, 2006 7:02:48 PM : “There was no appeal from the Kramnik team concerning the result of the fifth game. According to the rules it should have been done not later than 2 hours after the end of the game.”
Then the Kramnik’s manager is an incompetent (that already appeared so when he let his assisted to forfeit): at this point there’s nothing more to do and Kramnik’s team deserves to lose the point due to the incompetence at handling the issue by respecting basic procedures
for complaining, even if he right in the substance. I think that if Kramnik will accept to start again from 3:2 that could be a proof that he recognizes the “burocratic” mistake made by his team.
I appreciate what artichoke said about what can but does not need to happen in the “bathroom chess”.
I do not agree with daechine´s bothering that this conversation at this point would be dangerous.
I am sure that Kramnik will automaticly keep his future bathroom visits in a minimum.
In that case this toiletgate conversation leads only to the rule that neither of future tournament participant feels to be insulting: There will be effective hinders to prevent “bathroom doping”, with no speculation about that such really had happened anywhere earlier.