Vladimir Kramnik VS Deep Fritz
World Chess Champion Vladimir Kramnik of Russia will compete against Deep Fritz (Germany). The match will take place in Art and Exhibition Hall of the Federal Republic of Germany in Bonn from November 25 to December 5, 2006.
Unless Kramnik makes incredible boo boos (which could happen to any human), it would be hard for him to lose with such excellent conditions. Kramnik is a player with incredible chess understanding. He can easily find opening lines that easily lead to theorical or endgame tablebase draws.
Therefore, my prediction is the match will end up the same 3-3 tie. What is your prediction?
Chess Daily News from Susan Polgar
4-2 for Fritz, Rybka would score 5-1
If the following is true, then this match is a sham, a joke.
Susan do you know if this is true?
Mark Schreiber
23/10/2006 Kramnik Given 4 Big Advantages Do people know that Kramnik is given 4 big advantages that make this match ridiculous? Kramnik is getting help from the computer fritz to play against an impaired version of the computer fritz. Kasparov did not have these advantages when he played Junior or Fritz. 1) Kramnik will see the fritz’s opening book as fritz is playing its opening moves. 2) When fritz finds a draw in its endgame database then fritz must offer a draw to Kramnik. Kramnik does not have to play perfectly to draw the game. 3) Kramnik will train for almost 2 months on the same fritz program running on the same computer hardware as during the tournament. 4) Fritz can’t use a 6 man endgame tablebase. In the next match Kramnik should be given the option to take back moves. The goal of the match is to show if man could build a computer that can play chess better than a man. This match will not prove that. It does show that we have reached the point where this world champion is afraid and needs help to beat the computer. O bring back the great Kasparov.
/11/2006 14:55 I am not sure I understand Usman. Does he understand that Kramnik will see fritz’s screen during the game? So after fritz makes move 10 for example from its opening book, Kramnik can see what all the replies that Kramnik is expected to make. Kramnik will see on Fritz’s screen “all statistics (number of games, ELO performance, score) from grandmaster games and the move weighting of Deep Fritz.” So Kramnik can just pick his move from fritz screen. This is during the game not preparation before the game. Adams did not have practice games with the machine. The only grandmaster to get practice games before a match was Kramnik….
http://www.kramnik.com/eng/forum/messages.aspx?thread=6&n=59
I predict the computer will win with 4-2.
4 draws and 2 wins for the machine.
Humans will finally admit that the machines surpassed us! 🙂
Theo
fritz wins. simple.
Krankik already played three shamefull matches against Kasparov, Leko, Topalov. Why not one more. It will be draw 3:3.
4-2 for Fritz, Rybka would score 5-1
This silly comment shows how people develop irrational attachments to their computer programs.
Again!
Kramnik & team is twiting us.
Great advertisement for the latest ChessBase product.
Shame on all these brothers.
Sheesh, Kramnik even cheats in this match.
Obviously Kramnik can only use the Fritz engine for his preparation, not during the game. But what about the opening book? The article makes it seem like Kram can consult the opening book during the game. In that case, it would of course no longer be a real human vs. computer match at all.
To: Marc Shepherd said…
” 4-2 for Fritz, Rybka would score 5-1
This silly comment shows how people develop irrational attachments to their computer programs.”
The comment was silly however catpower did have a small point, I tested Fritz 10 to see how it wuld score against Rybka 2.1 and Ryba won 4,5 against 1,5 in a 6 game match (I set the time 75min+30 until move 40 and then 15min+30 to get a good sample of their playing strenght. This proves tat Rybka is still ahead by around 300 elo points.
D.K.
Even if kramnik was only allowed to use the fritz for practice, its still a sham!
Did kasparov get to practice for 2 mos with deep blue or junior?
what a joke
Quite honestly the same program on the same hardware will always pick the same move. All he has to do is play 6 games at home, memorize them and play it out at the board.
kramnik should be ashamed of himself, this is not man vs machine, this is a PR stunt by chessbase.
Fritz should crush him. If Fritz is close to Hydra.
Based on what I sow in Adams Hydra match, Kramnik has no chance playing black.
If you see those Adams matches, Hydra beat him with black in the endgame (after 40 moves) using brilliant endgame technique. So, Kramnik may pull the games when he is white.
But when Hydra was white, it simply outpowered human between moves 20 – 25 in each game. No opening theory can help Kramnik there.
So, If some analogy is there, Kramnik at best may pull 1.5:4.5 (if Fritz is strong enough)
Btw, it is realy weird to say that Kramnik has some advantage. At the end, he nagotiated terms of the match and there is no comparision with other matches man vs machine.
This match is simply fun and will not prove anything.
If Fritz is strong enough, than it does make sence to give Kramnik some kind of ballance. It would be stupid (for example) that man gets into time trouble. Who is going to judge what is equivalent thinking process between man and machine? It was sad when Kasparov got into time trouble vs Junior (or it was Fritz)
” I tested Fritz 10 to see how it wuld score against Rybka 2.1 and Ryba won 4,5 against 1,5 in a 6 game match (I set the time 75min+30 until move 40 and then 15min+30 to get a good sample of their playing strenght. This proves tat Rybka is still ahead by around 300 elo points.”
Note that I just got Rybka 2.2 and it defeats Rybka 2.1 consistently. So fritz 10 is far weaker than Rybka 2.2 for sure.
This is not about Kramnik playing the strongest program nor even man vs machine – its a cheesy PR stunt by chessbase, nothing more.
I expect in Kramniks next “man vs machine” game that he will ask for pawn and move odds + the ability to take back moves and make a “lifeline” call to a friend for help.
This is pathetic, brink back Kasparov the Great.
Kramnik Given 4 Big Advantages Do people know that Kramnik is given 4 big advantages that make this match ridiculous? Kramnik is getting help from the computer fritz to play against an impaired version of the computer fritz. Kasparov did not have these advantages when he played Junior or Fritz. 1) Kramnik will see the fritz’s opening book as fritz is playing its opening moves. 2) When fritz finds a draw in its endgame database then fritz must offer a draw to Kramnik. Kramnik does not have to play perfectly to draw the game. 3) Kramnik will train for almost 2 months on the same fritz program running on the same computer hardware as during the tournament. 4) Fritz can’t use a 6 man endgame tablebase. In the next match Kramnik should be given the option to take back moves. The goal of the match is to show if man could build a computer that can play chess better than a man. This match will not prove that. It does show that we have reached the point where this world champion is afraid and needs help to beat the computer. O bring back the great Kasparov.
Susan here are some of the details and yes Kramnik gets to view the screen as long as Fritz is in its opening book etc. – pathetic huh?
Click this link (from kramniks site)
http://www.rag.de/microsite_chess_com/
Then click on “Microsite”
Then put mouse over WCC and then onto “Rules”
Here you go Susan:
Rules:
DATES
Six games will be played on the days 1, 3, 5, 7, 9, 11 where day 1 is 25 day of November 2006. The games commence at 3.00 pm and end at 9.00 pm at which time Mr Kramnik will have the right either to continue with the game or to adjourn it to the next day.
TIME CONTROL
In each game the Players shall each have to make 40 moves in two hours followed by 16 moves per hour thereafter provided that in the event that a game has not been completed within six hours it may be adjourned to the following day at Mr Kramniks discretion when play will continue at the rate of 16 moves per hour for a further six hours.
Mr. Kramnik shall have the right to adjourn any game after 56 moves even if six hours of play have not been completed. Should this right be exercised, play shall continue on the following rest day at the rate of 16 moves per hour.
THE WINNER
The winner of the match will be the first Player to score more than 3 points. It is intended to award the winner the World Chess Challenge Trophy.
In the event that the match is decided before the six games set out in paragraph “Dates” have been played, Mr Kramnik will continue to play until the conclusion of the sixth game or offer his services in any way agreeable to both Parties.
ARBITER AND MATCH DIRECTOR
The match will be ruled and officiated by one arbiter. His decision regarding any interpretation of any of the rules of chess pertaining to this match shall be final and binding. The arbiter shall be selected by UEP and UEP shall inform Mr. Kramnik and Chessbase (CB) about the name of the arbiter as soon as possible but in no event later than 1 October 2006. UEP informs about its intention to contract Mr. Albert Vasse (Netherlands) being the arbiter of the WCC.
UEP shall have the right to announce a WCC Match Director who will be responsible for all necessary communication and administration during the match (with the Players, the Arbiter, the sponsors, the press, the local organisation at venue and other parties involved). For the avoidance of doubt: The Match Director has no influence or responsibility on the Arbiter’s decisions and shall have no influence regarding any interpretation of any rules of chess and any rules of the WCC which is solely a responsibility of the Arbiter.
THE COMPUTER OPERATOR
The CB Team will designate an Operator and up to two Reserve Operators. The Operator is the only person who may interact with Deep Fritz during the game. The Operator may not interact with Deep Fritz while Mr. Kramnik’s clock is running. The Operator may adjust the clock times used by Deep Fritz only within 15 seconds of Deep Fritz’s clock being activated.
During the game, the Operator may be replaced by a Reserve Operator should the Operator be unable to perform for any extended period of time. Any replacement of Operator must be authorized by the Arbiter.
The Operator will take all reasonable measures to insure that their activities do not distract Mr. Kramnik.
OPENING BOOKS
The computer will consult an opening book during the game. During the match, the opening book may not be modified, except that up to 10 ply of additional moves may be added in the opening variation of the game which has most recently been played (not counting adjournment sessions) and the weightings of specific moves may be modified so that the different variations, already present in the opening book, will be preferred by the program.
All opening book modifications will be entered by the Arbiter before the game according to the material confidentially provided to them by the Deep Fritz Team. A member of the Deep Fritz Team will be present and if necessary guide the Arbiter through the necessary steps of operation.
At the conclusion of each game the Arbiter will attempt to replicate the opening of the game on a computer which has the opening book and program as delivered to the Kramnik Team and the Arbiter. If they find any discrepancies, the Deep Fritz Team is required to explain these to the satisfaction of the arbiter.
If a violation of this rule is determined by the Arbiter, the penalty may include loss of the game.
As long as Deep Fritz is “in book”, that is playing moves from memory and not calculating variations, Mr. Kramnik sees the display of the Deep Fritz opening book. For the current board position he sees all moves, including all statistics (number of games, ELO performance, score) from grandmaster games and the move weighting of Deep Fritz. To this purpose, Mr. Kramnik uses his own computer screen showing the screen of the Deep Fritz machine with book display activated.
As soon as Deep Fritz starts calculating variations during the game the operator informs the arbiter. The arbiter confirms this on the screen of the playing machine and then shuts down the second screen.
ENDGAME TABLEBASES
The use of a database of endgame positions (“Tablebase”) is permitted only if the tablebase contains positions with a total five total pieces or less, including kings.
When Deep Fritz identifies the board position in a tablebase, it must inform the Arbiter, who will then stop the clocks.
In the presence of the Arbiter, the Operator will inform Mr. Kramnik that the position has been located in the tablebase.
If the position is evaluated by the tablebase as winning for the side played by Deep Fritz, the Operator will inform Mr. Kramnik of that fact in the presence of the Arbiter. The game will continue, unless Mr. Kramnik chooses to resign.
If the position is evaluated by the tablebase as winning for the side played by Mr. Kramnik, the Operator will inform Mr. Kramnik of that fact in the presence of the Arbiter. The game will continue unless the Deep Fritz Operator chooses to resign.
If the position is evaluated by the tablebase as a draw, the Operator will inform Mr. Kramnik of that fact in the presence of the Arbiter. This will constitute an offer of a draw. The game will continue, unless the offer is accepted prior to the completion of Mr. Kramnik’s next move.
It is recognized that the program will access tablebases in its calculations. The above rules apply only when the position on the board is present in the tablebase.
DRAW OFFERS
Mr. Kramnik may offer a draw at any time, regardless of whose turn it is. The Operator is authorized to accept or decline the draw on behalf of Deep Fritz.
The Operator may offer a draw on behalf of Deep Fritz, however a draw may not be offered unless a previous offer by Mr. Kramnik has been declined.
If Mr. Kramnik feels that the position is clearly drawn, he may notify the Arbiter and the Operator that he is making a claim of “technical draw”. The Arbiter will stop the clock. Mr. Kramnik will then explain his reasoning, and the Operator is obliged to accept the draw unless Deep Fritz can demonstrate that in the previous ten moves progress has been made.
The Arbiter will determine the validity of the claim, and his decision shall be final and binding. Should he uphold the claim, the game will be declared drawn. If he rejects the claim, then the game continues.
During the deliberations regarding a technical draw, the clocks will remain stopped. In the event the Arbiter reject the claim, the penalty will be deduction of the lesser of 5 minutes, or 10% percent of Mr. Kramnik’s remaining time. In the event a second claim of a technical draw is rejected in the same game, a 25% penalty will be assessed.
SOFTWARE OR HARDWARE FAILURE
Software or hardware failure is defined as the inability of the program to deliver a legal chess move to the operator.
In the event of an obvious software or hardware failure, the arbiter will stop the clock and give the Deep Fritz Team 5 minutes to decide whether to resume with the same machine or replace it.
After 5 minutes have elapsed, the arbiter will reactivate the clock.
Before making a move, the Deep Fritz Team will indicate to the arbiter that they are ready to resume play. The arbiter will immediately inform Mr. Kramnik.
After the Deep Fritz team informs the arbiter, any move made by the machine must be accepted as part of the game.
Should the Deep Fritz Team decide that hardware repairs cannot be made, they may substitute a machine which is either configured exactly the same as the designated playing hardware, or may switch to a dual-processor or single processor machine. The Arbiter must approve any hardware modification or substitution, and may carry out tests to determine whether the provisions of this article are being met.
POST-GAME CONFIRMATIONS
After the conclusion of each game, the Deep Fritz Team shall provide a printout of the computer analysis of the game to the Arbiter and the Kramnik Team. This printout includes evaluation, search depth, expected move and thinking time.
After each game, the Arbiter will be provided with an opportunity to compare the opening book used in the game with the opening book used in previous games.
DISCLOSURE OF MATCH ENGINE
By October 1, 2006, Mr. Kramnik and the arbiter will receive the final match version of Deep Fritz. After this date only bug fixes are done on the engine, for example obvious crashes or obvious positional errors. No positional knowledge will be added. Should the engine be modified in any way after 1 October 2006 Chessbase will notify Mr. Kramnik’s team and the Arbiter in writing about this specific change and demonstrate its effect on a test position. In any case Chessbase guarantees that any change after October 1, 2006, will not influence general playing style and tactical strength and confirms that the engine code remains practically unchanged after October 1, 2006.
From 1 October 2006 on, the Deep Fritz team will be ready on the request of the Kramnik team to install the final match version on Mr Kramnik’s trainings machine. The Deep Fritz team shall inform Mr. Kramnik and the organizer (UEP) by no later than 1 October 2006 about the specifications of the hardware which will be used during the WCC. In co-operation with a possible hardware producer and Chessbase the organizer (UEP) will make their best endeavours to provide Mr. Kramnik a trainings machine being similar with the machine during the WCC.
At any stage in the match, the Kramnik team may copy the exact playing engine directly from the tournament machine under supervision of the arbiter. The Deep Fritz Team is not required to disclose the exact hash table size for the match. It is understood that hash table size does not influence playing style but rather introduces a small element of non-determinism into the move selection process. The Deep Fritz Team has to notify the Arbiter of the Hash table size so that they can reproduce the programs calculations.
Even if kramnik was only allowed to use the fritz for practice, its still a sham!
I don’t have a problem with it. When Kramnik plays a human opponent, he looks at their past games to see their tendencies. Since that’s not practical here, getting to play with the program in advance is a substitute.
Kasparov may not have played Deep Blue in advance, but I’m pretty sure he played X3D Fritz before their 4-game match.
I do not have a problem with Fritz offering draws in Tablebase drawn positions. Isn’t that common procedure in GM games?
To prove that the computer surpassed man, it needs more than opening books and tablebase endings.
So if the computer is better it has to show it in the middlegame.
I do not know if Kramnik is the right person to be beaten by the computer, but i think he is probably the wrong person to beat the machine (if that is possible).
My prediction of the result?
3.5-2.5 or 4-2 in favor for Fritz.
There are reports circulating in the Bulgarian press that the doping probe taken from both participants in Kramnik vs Topalov game was used by KGB now called FSB I believe, to blackmail Topalov’s team. It was made clear to them that the outcome of the match will determine the outcome of the doping probe test.
This of course is impossible to confirm. But the fact is that the tests were analyzed in Moscow. This should speak for itself to those familiar with the Byzantine ways and means of the Russian bear. Also having in mind that currently a former KGB agent is dying in London from poisoning and a prominent Russian journalist opposing Kremlin was killed recently in Moscow suggests again and again that there is nothing impossible for Kremlin tugs.
Kramnik of course has NO access to the match opening book of Fritz 10. That is a deliberate LIE. And an insult to Mr. Kramnik.
Kramnik has access to the commercial opening book of the machine, but no access to the special opening book prepared for this match. To suggest such is silly.
Susan, you should withdraw that lie unless you can substantiate it, which you can not.
anonymous ranter: read the rules right above your crazy post!
“As long as Deep Fritz is “in book”, that is playing moves from memory and not calculating variations, Mr. Kramnik sees the display of the Deep Fritz opening book. For the current board position he sees all moves, including all statistics (number of games, ELO performance, score) from grandmaster games and the move weighting of Deep Fritz. To this purpose, Mr. Kramnik uses his own computer screen showing the screen of the Deep Fritz machine with book display activated.
“
Kramnik has LIVE access to everything until the machine goes out of the book! Your hero is a sham.
The idiot anon called Susan a liar even though she correctly posts about the official rules. They will defend Kramnik till the pigs fly.
Human vs. Computer is never “fair.” That’s not the point. Fritz can look up positions in a “book” during the game. Any human caught looking in a chess book during a match would be disqualified immediately. When those in wheelchairs compete in marathons, they’re faster than those who run. Wheels are faster than feet. This is not “fair” but that’s not the point. I think it is interesting (and yes, of course, an advertising ploy too) to allow a human some of the same (unfair) advantages that a computer already has.
As far as using Fritz to practice, Fritz gets to look at all of Kramnik’s games to practice. The same software running on the same hardware will not always make the same moves unless it is programed (by humans!) to do so. It may also be programmed to randomize moves based on certain variables.
Susan’s prediction of a 3-3 tie seems reasonable, especially considering the drawing advantage given Kramnik. Of course, it’s not fair. That’s not the point.
People are missing the point. Playing chess by dictionary — tablebases or opening book – is neither an interesting nor a fair fight. It takes no special programming or computation to follow an opening book or endgame tablebase.
Fritz 10 didn’t compute the Nalimov tablebase, and it’s no more part of Fritz’s *programmming* any more than a chessbook on Kramnik’s shelf is part of Kramnik’s brain. So why should the computer be allowed to access the tablebase during the game, while Kramnik cannot?
Is it because the database is electronic? But gigabytes of pre-computed data should not be allowed to the computer simply because of the form in which it’s stored. If so, why not let kramnik print out the tablebase and use it in human-native paper form? He could use his clock time to look up the answers, just like the computer.
No, the point is to match the computer’s programming, it’s “thinking”, to Kramnik’s. It should be middlegame plans, evaluations, and the computer should have to actually play chess. Given the state of programs with Hydra and Rybka, as well as Fritz, I think it will be a tough fight.
Years ago I read a David Levy´s book about how to make a chess program.With his lessons i did one.
It is not a good program because i am not professional developer, but it plays like a player rated 1800 or better.
I learnt that the computer weak points are always endgames and positional understanding,because it is very difficult to explain them with numbers.
I think that Kramnik is weaker tactically than players as Topalov and Anand, and this one is a big problem,because in the top GMs games,many times they need to jump with wild tactical strikes from one position to other…and here,exactly here, is where the program is really,really strong.
I remember one Kasparov game against one of the Fritzs:Kasparov had a position worse,but he sacrified two pawns for activity, and probably got a very good position…but he wasn´t playing with a person.Doing that stupidity
he increased the fritz rating probably in 200 points or more and Fritz won very easly.
Kramnik only chances are slow and calm positions,with many pieces on the board,the computer needs to calculate many things and its force decreases.
I think that Kramnik will be very fortunate if he holds and gets 3-3.
But anyway i am with him.I´m human :-).
3:3, it is not real match, it is marketing event.
CP
i just can’t imagine kramnik beating fritz…it’s just one of those things that is simply 2 hard…i mean, i can’t even beat fritz 🙂
Marc, this is not about irrational attachments to computer programs. Fritz 10 plays at 2800+ rating and doesn’t get tired or make mistakes. During the last Kramnik-Topalov match both Fritz 9 and Rybka would have played flawless in critical positions. Rybka 2.2 reaches the 3000 rating level. There is no GM that could defeat it in a regular match.
Check for yourself at:
http://www.husvankempen.de/nunn/40_40%20Rating%20List/40_40%20BestVersion/rangliste.html
I am voting for Fritz but as usual, it will be tie for political reasons; shall we say “Did the Soviets collude with chess computers?”
This is what I was waiting for. If Rybka 2.2 is way stronger than Fritz 10 then I am going to buy it. I presently have Rybka 1.2 and Deep Fritz 8 and Chess Master 9 and Hiarcs 9.
My prediction …
I think that Kraminik will manage a draw or a minimal win hinging on arbiter or Appeals committee decision regarding some contract clause or rule set beforehand. By the way the contract rules are written, I see that once again Kramnik relies on his lawyers to win the match. Whether this will be a win with grace, I leave for others to decide. I concur with posters who said that this is just another PR stunt, set in Kramnik-Elista style.
I agree with Susan that the score will be 3-3. Kramnik will not lose the face and ChessBase will be happy for marketing. These matches are clearly false. The truth is that computers, nowadays, are undoubtedly stronger than human players.
Mark Schreiber and everyone else who’s saying that it’s easy for Kramnik to win by finding the moves which make Fritz lose and then applying those exact moves in the tournament, are wrong! The reason is that there *is* some amount of non-determinism on Fritz’ moves. You can read about this in the rules, the part where it says:
“At any stage in the match, the Kramnik team may copy the exact playing engine directly from the tournament machine under supervision of the arbiter. The Deep Fritz Team is not required to disclose the exact hash table size for the match. It is understood that hash table size does not influence playing style but rather introduces a small element of non-determinism into the move selection process. The Deep Fritz Team has to notify the Arbiter of the Hash table size so that they can reproduce the programs calculations.”
In other words, only the arbiter can duplicate Fritz’ behavior, for everyone else outside Fritz’ team it will be a secret.
4:2 win for Fritzy.
Kramnik is going to lose.
MS. Susan
I think Kramnik will win ot tie ?
Because i am kramnik fans, and Susan fans.
Thanks
My prediction from the start is 3-3. This has not changed. I also correctly predicted the score for Kasparov vs. Fritz / Junior and Kramnik vs. Fritz.
Best wishes,
Susan Polgar
http://www.PolgarChess.com
It is silly to compare comp programs based on matches against comp programs alone. Fritz might still be much better at beating human GMs. Comp vs. comp matches are pointless.