There has been so much talk about the no draw rule or lack there of. For the record, I prefer to see fighting chess and I do not mind the no draw offer rule. But let’s talk about the reality! What would YOU do if you are leading a MAJOR tournament by 1/2 point going into the last round. You are paired against the player who trails you by 1/2 point. Everyone else is at least 1 point back. Draw and this BIG tournament is in your hand. You also get a GM norm and win $25,000 and so on.
If your opponent offers you a draw in move 10 which gives you everything you can dream of. Would you:
1. Say NO WAY! I am going all out for the win!
2. Say okey dokey! Sure! I accept your draw offer.
3. Get into a state of shock, stare at your opponent in disbelief and lose on time.
4. Phone Oprah or Dr. Phil for advice 🙂
It is always easy to judge others. But what would YOU do?
You take the draw of course. This could all be a different situation if wins counted as 3, draws as 1 and losses as 0 points as in soccer (football). I wish they would implement something like this.
The price is too big to risk. The draw!
“But what would YOU do?”
It would depend what the rule was, of course. If there was a No Draw Offer rule in place, and the offer was illegal, then I’d ignore it, and not complain about having to play the game out.
If the offer is legal, then of course I’m going to take it.
Fischer once lost a gold medal because he refused a draw in an inferior position with Black when a draw would have clinched the medal. Fischer never did win a Gold.
In that case OF COURSE the draw is accepted!
Nothing wrong with draws! If both players think the position is draw, or feel like a draw is a good result for standings, money, GM norms, to go home early, …whatever… then draw be it!
That’s the point, isn’t it? If the offer is legal, of course you’d take it. It shouldn’t be legal though.
I think the Sofia rules are best. If two GMs really want to “take the day off” they can play some innocuous opening, but they have to prove they can hold the game and not make any mistakes.
An unfortunate side effect of agreed draws, and faster time controls with no adjournments, is the sometime sloppy endgame play by the world’s elite. Carlsen blew a drawn rook ending, and Svidler couldn’t win Q vs. R, for example.
The Mtel Masters games (with the Sofia rules) go nice and deep into the games, giving us nice long endgames to watch. Even in a dead drawn ending, it’s exciting to watch sometimes because you don’t know if someone might blow it.
Okey dokey, I accept the draw, of course!
It is a lot of money and I can buy a lot of things with 25,000 dollars: The draw offer must be accepted.
If any money is involved and draws are allowed then of course you consider the draw. This is the chess players source of income.
Anyone who argues quick draws either 1) Is financial secure 2) A spectator with nothing at stake.
In Norway, Leif Oegaard has just gotten his GM-title two decades after his first shot at the title. When he needed a draw against a GM in the last round of the elite series his team payed the other team to bring a grandmaster from abroad. When the match was taking place, draw was agreed on every board simultaniously. Every involved participants have admitted to this circumstances. The problem is that no one of the involoved see the problematic side of this. Oegaard has a current rating just below 2400.
Maybe a better question is: What difference does it make if two players draw without a fight? IMO the biggest problem with such draws is when people show up to watch (either at the site or online). If no one is watching, does anyone care?
the draw of course. and the 25grand
Not accepting a draw in such favorable conditions does NOT make you a hero!
It just makes you….well…. a weirdo. (and $25K less in your pocket, lol) ,-)
If you were the player in SECOND place, would you offer the draw?
of course you take the draw. you do not “owe” anything to a bunch on nonpaying spectators. you owe it to yourself and your family to take the money and buy some steak. anyone that cries over short draws should start paying appearance fees to players. oh, you don’t want to pay? you just want the players to pay. of course, major tournaments where the players ARE paid appearance fees is a different ballgame. but a major swiss, you pay yourself and to hell with the no-draw whiners.
I would offer the opponent my hand and when he/she takes it I would announce “I win!”, while at the same time kicking him/her under the table. If necessary I would fake some coughing. 🙂
I’m with globular Re: Sofia rules. And I would totally agree to the draw!
I can’t really think of many games/sports where the contestants can agree to a draw at any point. Imagine what a stadium full of soccer fans would do if two teams agreed to a draw 5 minutes into a match?
Refuse the draw, shake hands with the opponent a few seconds later, drive away with the prize money a few hours later.
Of course the opponent could only have offered the draw if he had just hung his queen and was about to resign.
Susan,
This is the exact scenario that can happen and why we NEED the Sofia Rules. Chess is one of those games where settling for 2nd seems somehow noble, and the scenario you described does not give way to reality.
Lets Talk about the Reality: It you were the player down by 1/2 point, would *you* offer the draw at move 10? OF COURSE NOT.
This is why there needs to be a rule in effect to make this decision moot. Players should not have to even consider this scenario. They should go in knowing the game has to be really played.
The chess public does not want players to be ‘given’ GM norms, or to be rewarded for safe, quiet play, and that is exactly what the 10-move, GM draw does, and is exactly what you described, and is what exactly Fischer complained about in the 60’s.
Lets Talk about the Reality: It you were the player down by 1/2 point, would *you* offer the draw at move 10? OF COURSE NOT.
Actually, that’s not the case. In 2006 North American Open in Las Vegas Izoria offered a draw to Nakamura around move 10 while been in exactly the same situation (Nakamura was in clear first half point ahead). Of course, Naka accepted.
the issue with no draws relates only, i believe, with these big tournaments that there is internet coverage of, like corus, wijk, world championships etc.
otherwise, draw away … but if there are 1000 people watching on icc, where i observe, play it out.
I dislike “no draw” rules: sometimes the draw is justified in the position and, anyway, it’s an artificial attempt to cure the problem of “GM draws.” The real solution to my mind is to simply stop inviting pacifist GMs to major events – let the market solve the problem.
it’s easy: accept the draw, get the cash and finally the GM title 🙂
(and add a won tournament to your list)
greetings from Romania
Phone Susan Polgar and ask for advice on the position 🙂
take the draw. draws are alright if its an obvious draw. what if it was king vs king and no draws accepted. do you replay the game??? maybe draws should follow some set rules. such as king vs king or king vs king and minor piece automatic draw. maybe taking draws out of the players hands would be a good solution.
2. Say okey dokey! Sure! I accept your draw offer.
HOLD it
HOLD IT
I would immediately slip out my checkbook and write him a check for $5,000 as agreed. Well if it cost $10,000 then I would pay that amount.
The rats are the ones who insist on playing out the game.
We need a firm rule saying that draws for money are more than acceptable and are part of the game. After all the draw is the smart move.
For example lets say my opponent and I have this same situation twice in life. And in one case we agree the draw both times and in the other case we fight it out with one win for each person.
Well guess what. We both get more money with the draws then we get if we fight it out.
Therefore on average taking the draw is the smart Grandmaster move.
I really do not think it is anyone elses business if my opponent and I agree a draw with spliting money. It is a simple business agreement.
The problem comes if one party does not keep his word. I think the proper way is to allow both players to go to the tournament director before beginning play and tell him that the two of you agree the draw and the one player gets $5,000 of the prize money of the other player. That way the players can not cheat the other player.
Good question Susan.
These childish people who want to interfer with a good business agreement should go mind their own business.
Remember if you consistently take draws in the last round for money then both players will make more money in the long run. So the correct answer is to ALWAYS agree the draw without playing.
This is particularily important the more money involved. with a little weekend swiss with top prize of say $100 then it is ok to play if you just want to play a game. But when you get to important tournaments like the World Open then you have to take the professional DRAW AGREED before playing the first move.
I am sure some people disagree with me. But just giving my opinion. and the correct financial mathematics.
If I was the player down a 1/2 point, I would talk to my opponent BEFORE the game began.
In fact if I was either player, I would talk to my opponent BEFORE the game to discuss the financial arrangements of an agreed DRAW.
Look, if there is prize money then both of us are playing chess for the money. So lets get smart and discuss money and draws before the game even starts.
I am talking about reality. Most of the people are like an ostrich with their head stuck in the sand ignoring the reality.
The RULES of chess allow for draws. Therefore it is always legal.
Since the rules of chess allow for draws they should allow the 2 players to go to the tournament director before play begins and agree the draw. the tournament director should be forced to assign the draw to the game without any moves being played.
Then the game can go unrated since it was not played and would not effect anyones rating. Right now it affects ratings which is stupid. They draw anyway and never fight so it should not count toward ratings.
Ot seems to me that so many people are so messed up about draws. That is the problem. People are not looking at draws with reality. Get real get draws and accept the consequences of the rules of the game. Stop playing games with the rules.
Lets say it is a WC Match with Topalov and Kramnik and they want a rest day with agreed draw. I would rather the game not start and I sit there watching a phoney game. Let them agree the draw before any moves are made. Then I dont waste time watching a boring draw.
But no. all these people want to pretend they are playing for real when they are not. That is the problem. Stop pretending.
If allow, accept the draw. It’s about risk and reward management here. The same apply to fight for a draw or a win for any particular game. Which openning do I use as white or black. Do I play a open or a close position?
The problem here has to do with a team of chess players who uses draws or even losses to affect outcome against an indidual.
Can we compare this scenario to sports, such as pro basketball.
1. When a team clinches a playoff spot (or maybe the #1 seed) then they might take the last game or two of the season off. The starters might play for 20 minutes and then rest.
2. When a team has a 10 point edge in the final minutes, the goal is to run out the clock. That team will dribble around for the first 15-18 seconds of the shot clock before making a play. (This example is even worse in professional soccer.)
In both cases, the team that is ahead has the right to take it easy and choose the safe way out. It is the opponent’s responsibility to take risks if he or she wants to make progress and try to win.
Do not punish a player who has played aggressively and brilliantly for the previous rounds just because he or she chose to clinch first place (or a GM norm) in the last round.
Accept the Draw. A tie has been part of chess rules for centuries. Why change them?
People have free will. If two agree to a draw, the rules allow it, and that is that.
IN this case, Draw…no doubt about it!
I’d rather NOT LOSE, than “fight” and lose. You’ve gained little by a “fighting loss.”
You still lose.
It’s like in basketball. It doesn’t matter if you lose by ONE point or 100 points, in the end, YOU STILL LOSE. Period.
1/2 point is ALWAYS BETTER than 0 points.
Wow, what a nice question.
Sounds like: Lets say you meet Pamela Anderson at the beach while the sun is setting. She is all alone. While you walk by her she smiles to you and asks you to come over. When you stand before her, she says she wants to kiss you, what would you do? Take the kiss or think about your wife who is at home waiting for you and refuse the kiss???
The situation with the proposed draw and the big tournament and the GM norm on the line and and and is really nice. But it is also very unrealistic. Why create such hypertheoretical situations? Just to receive the answer you wanna get?
This question about the draw is just as much a non question as the one i gave about Pamela Anderson.
Yo creo que muchos aceptarían eso, y luego quizás al irse le quiarian el dulce a un niño?…o la cartera a una ancianita???….si!!!…hay de esa clase de gente, y son mas de los que uno desearía !!!!!!!
Yo soy de los que creen que el Honor, la Honestidad, la Sabiduria y la Mano Diligente te darán mucho mas que un botin manchado ….esas cualidades traen Oro del mas refinado en la mano derecha y largura de días en la mano izquierda….sabe alguien quien dijo eso??
Definitivamente Susan, te digo NO!!….sonriendo……pero???……..preparate para la partida, mis piezas hablarán por mí !!!!! -y no me sentiré presionado por ganar la partida (aunque dare todo mi esfuerzo por conseguirlo)……..porque ya gané al decir NO!!!!-
Eso me aconseja Dr. Phil ! 🙂
(escribo en castellano porque en ingles no podria expresar eso…es muy basico como lo hablo)
if i really wanted to have a perfect score and if loosing the last game wouldnt endager my first place i would play it but how you state it , i would have to be pretty stupid to follow the sofia rules for pride or other stf, i mean real life is real life.
i guess the big picture is that there are some drws that arent really honourable, it depends; if its part of the game then its not your fault,
normally i never say no to my opponent if he asks for draw even if im better, and i dont really ask for draw even if im in a worse scenario, normally!
of course a 12 move draw when theres nothing at stake and you pay for an spectacle is worth changing, but if your at a big tournement, well its part of the strategy, if not_; why hasnt topalov been the same as at sanluis, were only humans!!
Puedo agregar algo más???….el oponente que te hace esa propuesta es un mediocre !!!! Y cuando digas “NO” lo dejarás en evidencia !!!
Morphy would never take a draw. Fischer would never take a draw. Kasparov, Karpov, Topalov, etc would. There is no more honour or courage left. The ends do NOT justify the means. A Viking, A Samurai Warrior, A Ninja would never back down from a fight to the death! By the way, I would take the draw :o)
I would like to refuse the draw, but I’m tempted to accept the draw.
The money and ratings are given to players as an incentive for their contribution to chess.
I consider myself not doing the best to chess by accepting the offer.
Is a price-fixing by all companies in a market allowed? Is it good for the market and the consumer. I do not think so. This case looks more like price-fixing, where every market player gains except for the consumer and they should be put behind the bars for cheating consumer’s money.
Well, I would like to treat chess in similar way.
Another point is, I’m not a professional chess player. I mean I’m not living from the money I get ONLY from chess. Hence I can afford, to refuse the draw and I would refuse the draw on the 10th move.
Anandh
Morphy and Fischer were both mentally unstable people with severe self esteem issues that led more to their refusal of draw offers than anything having to do with honor or courage. It is oft easy to confuse the two, insanity and bravery, and had happened repetedly throughout history, but it is still fallacious reasoning and wholly inaccurate.
Drawing is an art form that is under-rated and underappeciated.
It’s really funny. There is an irony hidden in the problem posed by Susan for consideration:
IF draws were NOT allowed, there wouldn’t be possible a situation like this:
“”
you are leading a MAJOR tournament by 1/2 point going into the last round
“”
– IF draws were NOT allowed, you could be leading only by a FULL POINT or TWO POINTS, or you would not be leading at all…
Baby’s hungry. Draw.
>>drkodos said…
Morphy and Fischer were both mentally unstable people with severe self esteem issues that led more to their refusal of draw offers than anything having to do with honor or courage.
>>
Now, hold on, Scattergun. Morphy has no special reputation for refusing draw offers. It wasn’t an issue in his day one way or the other. Since he only played one tournament in his life, a knockout, there’s no telling what he’d do in this situation.
anonymous: I was responding to an earlier post that had made the claim about Morphy refusing draws. The only claim I make about Morphy was that he was mentally unstable.
Like a lot of us.
If it was an open tournament with no special draw rules and I felt they were stronger than me then I would accept the draw, otherwise play on.
Why is this question relevant? The reason that rule changes are being proposed is to remove this decision from the players, and to make the outcomes of tournaments be determined by the results of playing chess games to the end rather than by all the factors that you mention that are unrelated to the games.
If tournament position, norms, prize money, etc, are valid reasons to agree to a draw, then why not bribes, the fact that the other player is your friend, your boss, etc?
In other sports, agreeing the outcome of a game without actually playing it is called “fixing” or “throwing” the game. It is regarded as cheating, as corruption, as something that is probably caused by the influence of gamblers, mobsters, and criminals. People who do it are banned from their sports, not to mention blackening their reputations forever. Why is it different in chess, and why should it be?
I once did…. but it was just similar, especially not such an easy opening.
After 4th round (of 5) I was leading with 3.5 to 3 (not my opponent of the last match) and I played a really aggressive variation of the french (with white) and I (almost!?) overplayed (is that a correct english word? if not: I hope you know what I wanted to say) it, so I accepted draw in a really unclear position (but like in your example only a few moves were played, too few!). In the end I won because of the “Feinwertung”.
It just was a “Bezirksjugendeinzelmeisterschaft” so there was no GM-title and no 25000 Dollars. 😉
Another time in a youth blitz chess tournament I was leading with 3 points and there were three rounds to go…. my opponent wanted to get that half point and offered me draw.
I refused (!) and won the last 3 games and than had 100% in that tournament.
I was really proud that day, perhaps I was a fool, too, because later no one (except me :)) would ever ask for the amount of points I won with….
Probably in the second case it was really silly, but what do you think?
To answer Susans question:
For 25000 Dollar I’d probably would accept.
I don’t know what I would do if I would know (and like) player nr. 3 and that draw would take him the possibility to take 2. place….
Greetings,
Jochen