This picture was published on the Topalov fan site. It shows the cables found in the restroom of World Champion Vladimir Kramnik. The claim is that Kramnik “could” be cheating in the restroom using the cables. At least that is what I understand from reading it.
Absurd! That is my opinion.
I find the evidence presented against Topalov unconvincing and I also find the evidence against Kramnik equally unconvincing. Discussing about bad conducts is Elista is legitimate but cheating? No! I once again state that I do not believe that either player cheated. They are both fantastic players in their own ways.
Unless someone can come up with “real” proof, I am totally not convinced.
Chess Daily News from Susan Polgar
I agree that neither players cheated! They may have behaved like pigs but no cheating.
Of course, this accusation is absurd.
However, I can’t avoid to have still suspicions against Topalov. He has the benefit of doubt as long as any evidence is shown. But the “Topalov affair”, is, IMHO, of a totally different nature. Accusations come from several people, several times and in several places…
It is possible that both sides are playing a mud-slinging game without there being any actual cheating.
Maybe Kramnik’s trips to the toilet was just a psychological ploy to distract the hyper-vigilant Topalov. All chess players tend to be a bit paranoid – and this is just a means of exploiting it.
The people who were caught cheating in small tournaments do not have much to lose, but Topalov and Kramnik have a lot to lose if they are actually caught cheating.
As Anon1 said, perhaps both teams behaved like pigs and no one cheated, and the rest of us (“spectators”) got sucked into the speculation.
Kasparov also complained about Kramnink going to frequently in the toilet during their match. But he was more serious person and did not go in public making accusations with nearly no evidence.
Note this also:
Topalov accepted to have glass between the players and the audience in Elista, despite the fact that it was not in the contract!
Kramnink on the other side, refused to play when the appeal comitee deceided to close the toilets.
Topalov, in the match in Elista, proved himself to be (almost) equal to Kramnink in a match (where Kramnink is supposed to be much stronger than tournaments). He did this despite the glass, stoping any hypothetical cheating.
I agree that both accusations are completely absurd. BUT the best way to disprove them, is for the players to accept the measures and prove themselves worthy! That is what Topalov did in Elista (almost, since he eventually lost..) while this is what Kramnink did NOT do.
Excellent point!
Let’s not hang a man before he is proven to be guilty. Kramnik has already explained why he went in and out of the mens room so frequently; he drank a lot of water and had to walk around a lot, due to his illness.
Topalovs team has not explained their strange behaviour, other than with threats on the messangers. Why the circus? Why not explain what is going on, and avoid all speculations? This is not going to stop by itself, I’m afraid, and it can hurt the chess world more if it continues.
Susan,
(I am an IM from Europe.)
I know about cheating in chess on all levels because we speak about it during our chats on tournaments but nobody dares to go publicly.Once Judit Polgar said like this: (in magazine regarding the game Polgar-Kasparov when Kasparov moved back his knight; move already executed on the board and all taped on video):” It is not surprising that there is cheating in chess when the basic idea in chess is to ”cheat”’ somehow your opponent.”
But let us talk about 100% documented cheating published in NEW IN CHESS magazine,and nobody talks about it.!!
2 years ago Topalov mentioned in NEW IN CHESS that during his games in Linares KASPAROV !! many time left to his room!!.
I AM AMAZED THAT NOBODY REACTED ON THAT STATEMENT.
Of course ,I firmly believe that Kasparov produced his beautifull games without cheating in MIDDLEGAME ,but i firmly believe that in opening phase he went to consult his 9GB opening database analyses in his room.
Spiritualy speaking profesional chess is a sport full of greed,hate of each other , ego trips, so it is not surprising that all DIRT is comming out even from players who are ”the best”.
WHAT GOES AROUND COMES AROUND.
(just watch Korchnoi on videos or ask the stories of his behaviour after the loss and you will understand why he was caled ”THE EVIL ONE” (”ZLOY”) 40 years ago in Russia.)
So,Susan are you convinced in cheating by Kasparov or not ?
How would you vote in that case?
(I already posted all this on your blog and from 50 comments only one replied.115 comments and speculation on UNPROVED cheating by Kramnik and Topalov and only 1 on 100% proved by Kasparov.)
f.e.
(to polo mateo who said that Kasparov going to room during game is not 100% proof of cheating)
——————-
I replied:”
1) In the court of law it is not necessary to prove something beyond ANY doubt.
You need to prove it ”beyond REASONABLE doubt”.
2) Please understand the difference between ”beyond any doubt” ,and ”beyond reasonable doubt.
3)So, In Kasparov’s case if I would be a member of the jury I would conclude that his going in his hotel room during the game is enough evidence for cheating.So my verdict would be- GUILTY.
LOOK AT THE WIRES!!! Kramnik was caught red handed! What other evidence do you need ???
We have the Deep Fritz percentages, the bathroom breaks and now the wires!
How blind can you be?
This issue will not go away. I do not believe, that is, REALLY believe that either Kramnik nor Topalov “cheated.”
The bottom line is this: Like it or not, GM Kramnik defeated GM Topalov and is now the WCC. That’s just the way it is and he is not going to be “stripped” of his title because of some photo of a cable in a bathroom.
It’s over. Life goes on. There is more to chess than Kramnik or Topalov. There will be another World Championship match sometime in the near future.
When Adolf Andersson, arguably Europe’s best player in the 1850’s got thoroughly outplayed and defeated by Paul Morphy, Mr. Andersson was quite the gentleman and praised Morphy as “…the finest chess player who ever existed.” (Beim, 151).
What ever happened to such honor? Such sportsmanship? We hear the words “sportsmanship,”
“honor,” and such but few live by them…and this is true in other sports as well.
Just think: What kind of example does this scandal (and people’s responses) give to the chess-playing children across America and the world? It can’t be a good one. Why doesn’t anyone ever think of this?
Humans are wonderful at speculating and fantasizing, taking sides, and getting angry. I think we all see examples of it everyday in many aspects of life.
If the WCC along with Topalov would promote chess, think of the future of the game after they are gone from the scene (such as sponsoring a children’s tournament) it would mean something.
This is why I so respect GM Polgar. She tirelessly works to promote chess and works for the future of the game.
Cheating is going to happen. I’m not saying it did in the WC match but it’s happening and will continue.
Deal with the underlying issue and just get over the Kramnik vs Topalov scandal. The outcome isn’t going to change!
I hope the concept of honor and sportmanship will someday return to WCC. Funny fact is that you don’t hear of this type of animosity in the Women’s World Championship.
Kramnik is champ and will be until he’s defeated OTB. That’s just the plain truth of the matter.
The fight began in 1992!
Silvio Danailov vs Vladimir Kramnik
http://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1085767
susan this is certainly more absurd than the video which at least shows danailov around the playing area making some nervous movements but if break open any part of the ceiling in a sufficiently mordern building you can find cables wires or all kinds. Further, since most of the people havent been to kramniks toilet who is going to testify whether the bathroom is indeed kramniks.
Topalov cheats. It’s evident, there are too many suspicions coming from many people all over the world.
Other cheating allegations of top GMs are completely unfounded.
Remain Topalov, his KGB-like manager and his propagandic web site, which does not fear comparison with stalinism methods.
Susan,
People who have a certain nature,who would never do something they condemn, also can’t imagine about others they otherwise respect to do the same. You for example, appear to be the type of person who would never cheat. But that doesn’t mean others are the same. Much as you would like to see the chessplayers of the world to be a big happy and honest family, this may not be the case.
I am repeating myself about the Kramnik-Topalov case, but the subject keeps coming back like a boomerang.
About Kramnik:
Was there or was there not an internet cable smack above the infamous bathroom? If yes, that is suspicion, but no proof. Did it have a plug at the end, right above the bathroom? If yes, that is proof. Nobody wires up a building, running an internet cable, ending with a plug above a bathroom, just for the heck of it.
I also indicated that as a physician, there are only a very few health conditions making people to run to the bathroom 18-20 times during the typical timeframe of a chess game. Typically all would prevent a person to attend such chess game (Kramnik’s admitted health problem is NOT one of those).
With the above statement I am NOT saying that Kramnik cheated, all I did was listing the “case parameters”.
About Topalov:
The presented film fails to show any credible evidence of cheating.
Again, with the above statement I am not saying that Topalov didn’t cheat, only listing the “case parameters”.
Summary:
If there was a plug at the end of that cable, the case would be too clear not to be presented to the world by the Topalov team. I suspect there wasn’t. Which in a roundabout way probably shows you being correct, neither player has cheated. However, the technology arrived making cheating quite possible. The world of chess should look into the future, leave along the past, and try to figure out a method to prevent future cheating.
That is the best they can do.
Gaboreqerx
Gabor
I don’t know where this stuff about Kramnik’s medical condition came from. Kramnik specifically said in New in Chess that he never mentioned it as a reason in Elista, and the Appeals Committee didn’t mention it either. He said he likes to pace around and sometimes went in there for that reason and because the air was cooler in there, sometimes he went in to splash water in his face and sometimes he went in for the same reasons everyone does. The whole rheumatoid-arthritis-doesn’t-make-you-pee thing is a straw man set up by Topalov’s crew so that they can knock it down, as far as I can tell.
As to the cables, I’ve seen it said there were similar cables above Topalov’s lavatory. I’ve also seen it said that the players exchanged restrooms after every game. Unfortunately we never get any proper information about this sort of thing released (one thing I’ll say for this scandal; we may think the Western press are a damned nuisance but the news blackout in Elista does make you realise investigative reporting journalism does have its uses).
I’ve not seen anyone say where these cables are supposed to go to. I think we can be sure that if the Bulgarians had found a jack they’d be telling us about it. It’s clear that each side had the opportunity to examine the other’s restrooms before the match. That was the moment to bring this sort of rubbish up.
Percy
The cables would need to connect to a computer, but if you have a computer, you wouldnt need the cables anyway.
So what kind of idiot with access to a computer would leave cables around to betray them?
Modern buildings contain wires and cables. This is not newsworthy.
Perhaps Topalov would like to submmit some pink elephants and flying pigs as further proof.
The difference between the allegations of Kramnik cheating and Topalov are this: Kramnik was thoroughly investigated at the time and exhonorated of all wrongdoing in the ONE event he was accused by ONE GM.
Topalov is suspected of cheating at several events by several GMs (none of whom were Kramnik), and whilst none of the evidence proves his guilt, the suspicion remains.
J.
So, Percy, can you tell us why Kramnik was pacing around in the toilet and splashing water in his face a lot less during the match against Fritz 10, and at Corus, than at Elista?
I just now come from Kramnik’s website.
http://www.kramnik.com/default.aspx
There is an open message board but no discussion like we read here. It is very calm. No accusations against Topalov. No discussion that he might have cheated.
I find this as evidence that Kramnik is NOT waging a war against Topalov. Kramnik is not attacking Topalov.
Also everyone states that Kramnik never said he thought that Topalov might have cheated.
So were is there any evidence against Kramnik that he is attacking Topalov. I can find no evidence.
I think we need to stop claiming that Kramnik is attacking Topalov.
For the Anon IM in Europe: The standard of proof required to convict in a criminal case is as you say “beyond a reasonable doubt”. The standard of proof in a civil case is much lower, “the preponderance of the evidence” or 51%. Usually one hears all of the evidence before rendering judgment. There is no exception for self-absored jurors or judges to render judgment without hearing all of the evidence, no matter how lofty their opinion of themselves may be.
“Anonymous said…
LOOK AT THE WIRES!!! Kramnik was caught red handed! What other evidence do you need ???
We have the Deep Fritz percentages, the bathroom breaks and now the wires!
How blind can you be? “
You left out the most damaging piece of evidence: He beat a guy that we now know was receiving signals from his manager. It seems almost impossible that anyone could have beaten Fritzalov without cheating himself.
If you wondered why Fritzalov was so sure Kramnik was cheating even when there was no obvious proof, now you know. He knew something we didn’t know.
RE: The allegations against Kramnik at Elista. “Absurd” is a good description.
RE: The allegations against Topalov (at other events). They are not proven, but there is cause for suspicion. They are not equal to the allegations against Kramnik in any way.
Hello??? Anyone there??? Kramnik is still going to be the champ whether or not a cable was found within a bathroom!
This contant bickering demeans the entire sport of chess. It doesn’t matter what we think. It doesn’t matter what a court of law might conclude. Facts are stubborn but the fact is that Kramnik is the champ, Topalov lost, and why on Earth can’t we just concentrate upon the other tournaments both Topalov and Kramnik will play in this year?
This continuing bickering amongst visitors to this site is pathetic and childish.
cables???!!! amateurs
They found cables in the ceiling? Unthinkable! Ever heard of buildings that have cables in the ceiling?
chess444, you’d have to ask Kramnik, but a wild guess says that he’d reply that pacing up and down in a public loo at Corus would be more likely to get him arrested than give him a quiet space to reflect. What do you reckon?
As to the Fritz match, perhaps you would like to post a link to any proof of your suggestion that Kramnik visited the lavatory any less there than in Elista?
And perhaps you’d like to answer the quesion I asked Dimi. Kramnik has played lately in Torino, Corus and Dortmund, as well as the latter half of Elista and the rapids at Elista. In all these events he has played at about the same level and in about the same style. In your opinion, is this because he was cheating at all of them, or because his cheating at Elista turned out not to help him, or what?
Percy
Why was Kramnik allowed to take that ladder with him into the rest room? Are you telling me the arbiter didn’t spot that??
>>It is possible that both sides are playing a mud-slinging game without there being any actual cheating.>>
*How* is that possible, given that Kramnik hasn’t said a word about it in 3 months? Susan likes to blame them both every time Topalov opens his mouth, but the fact is Topalov is playing this game by himself.
Damn,
how did those people get into my bathroom with a camera ?!
We are passed the question of whether VK or VT cheated in Elista or at Corus.
The real issue is why Topalov is allowed to say and publish such terrible things about Kramnik, without FIDE punishing Topalov?
Short of saying Kramnik beats his girlfriend/wife, what could be worse than insisting Kramnik cheated during the WCChamp match?
Many people on this blog have called for Topalov to discontinue making his accusations.
But some of those people are not calling for Topalov to be punished by FIDE. It makes me wonder whether they may be in effect saying:
“I dislike Topalov’s behavior, but FIDE is right to allow that kind of behavior. FIDE is setting the right precedent by allowing it.”
This do-nothing tolerance would presumably lead to more such accusations. In fact, the silly accusation recently leveled against Topalov & Danailov (with that pointless video from Corus) is evidence that such a pattern is gaining strength.
Gene_M
“The real issue is why Topalov is allowed to say and publish such terrible things about Kramnik, without FIDE punishing Topalov?”
Because Topalov is the only GM who publicly endorsed Kirsan. The existing rules provide for suspensions of up to 3 years for what Topalov has done, but when the complaint came in a month or so ago, FIDE announced flat out that they wouldn’t even consider enforcing the rule against him. It does help to have friends in high places.
anonymous said:
petros:
I can smell your Topalovian cologne from here…
~~~
You’re being a little hard on him. While it’s true that Topalov approved of the glass, and so didn’t make any real concession, but his point is valid. Even with the glass in place, Topalov more or less held Kramnik even. Okay, he didn’t *quite* hold him even, he still lost the match. But still, it proves that Topalov IS that good even without cheating. Maybe not quite Kramnik’s equal head to head, but good enough to achieve his kind of results honestly. Okay, his behavior is atrocious, but that doesn’t mean he cheated.
Guys, you are mixing up the things. Topalov had not accused Kramnik of cheating since Elista. What he said was just a repetition of the accusations he made in Elista. Journalists ask for it and he answers.
These pictures are from the book “toiletgate”, which was promised to the readers right after the WCC match and took a couple of months to be prepared and published.
Let us look at the photos and think who is this photo accusing? Kramnik? Nope, Kramnik is not a construction worker to put a cable in the ceiling. Is there any evidence that Kramnik knew about this cable? None. The only thing that connects Kramnik with this cable is the fact that he visited this bathroom 8 times per hour. Accidentally there was a cable in the ceiling of the bathroom. Was there such cable in Topalov’s bathroom? Maybe, but we do not find this suspicious, because there was no Topalov in Topalov’s bathroom. He visited his bathroom only a few times during the games.
So who does this photo accuse? It accuses FIDE and more specifically Kirsan. The building engineer explained that installing the cable was ordered from a very high place. The other end of the cable was tracked to be connect to the presidential building. So why did Kirsan (maybe) ordered this cable to be installed?
My guess is that Kirsan “sold” Topalov twice for the support of the Russian [Chess] Federation for his [FIDE] Presidency. Back then we knew that he made a deal with them, but we thought he only promised them an unification match. Now I think he promised them also the chess crown. This cable indicates that Kirsan was willing to go to extremes, if the things didn’t go his way. Luckily Kramnik won without the cable and I am not sure, if he would have used the cable anyway. But the bathrooms were “prepared” for cheating. This is not what players expected for the hosts.
This is why the second AC resigned. They realized that they were played and there were too many strange things surrounding this match.
Since Elista the war is not between Kramnik and Topalov. This is why Kramnik keeps low profile. He is not a party here. The war is between Topalov and FIDE. They will try anything to shut him up.
The strange part is that nobody here seems to be concerned why the resignation of the second AC was not published anywhere until the book “toiletgate”, why the existence of cable was not explained by FIDE officials. The book did not invent these things it only made them public because there was a “code of silence” surrounding these facts. Or maybe you prefer you have never learnt about these things?
ABOUT THE DANILOV KRAMNIK GAME:
(i kind said)
Interesting that at no time does Danilov move a piece past the 5th rank and only two times does he move a piece on the 5th rank. Danilov chooses to play the entire game on ranks 1-4 !
What does this mean? Is he afraid of Kramnik?
http://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1085767
And how many times Kramnik’s pieces crossed the 5th horizontal?
Was Kramnik afraid from Danailov? What a champion!
I love chopin, please get your facts somewhere near right. This letter was published by ChessToday, if by no-one else.
As for Topalov not coming out with new allegations since Elista, this is not true. In Elista he said he did not believe Kramnik was cheating. After the match he has come out and said that he thinks he was cheating not just by the cables but by some undetectable method in the rapids.
Is this theory that the cable was there to be used but never in fact used what Ginchev’s book says?? Surely not.
i love chopin guessed:
My guess is that Kirsan “sold” Topalov twice for the support of the Russian [Chess] Federation for his [FIDE] Presidency. Back then we knew that he made a deal with them, but we thought he only promised them an unification match. Now I think he promised them also the chess crown. This cable indicates that Kirsan was willing to go to extremes, if the things didn’t go his way. Luckily Kramnik won without the cable and I am not sure, if he would have used the cable anyway. But the bathrooms were “prepared” for cheating. This is not what players expected for the hosts.
>>
You’re mixing up the things, as you say. If you’d read the article published just before the match, you’d know that this building was constructed for the match, and intended to be used for other events afterwards. Since it was constructed by the government, naturally orders about it came from a high place.
All you’re doing here is endorsing Short and Breutigam’s behavior. If you admit that tossing out these kind of charges is okay (and you do), then you can’t complain about it.
Percy,
What, Kramnik didn’t have his own private loo at Corus!? Well, I am surprised. He thought it was worth forfeiting a game for at Elista.
No, I don’t have a link re the Fritz match, but I assume that seeing no mention seems to have been made of absurdly frequent visits during that match, the number of such visits was back to ‘normal’. I certainly do wish someone in the know (there must be video recordings) would provide that information. I would be willing to bet there’s a big difference.
I cannot answer for Dimi, and he may well have a different opinion, but in my opinion it indeed seems very unlikely that Kramnik was computer cheating.
I am much more inclined to think it was some sort of distraction tactic. If so,it certainly worked. Topalov said his blunder in game 10 (which cost him the match) was due to moving fast to try to keep Kramnik at the board. Indeed, Kramnik did not win a single classical game except courtesy of a massive Topalov blunder. Topalov must have been distracted to make so many such blunders.
Can you give me a reason why Kramnik (although legally he didn’t have to) didn’t, out of courtesy, and to allay possible suspicion, inform the committee, his opponent, etc as to the reason for his very strange behaviour? That is, if he’s a nice guy – after all, if was not malevolently motivated, why not?? This is what I don’t understand.
[…]Anonymous said…
It is possible that both sides are playing a mud-slinging game without there being any actual cheating.[…]
Kramnik has never thrown any mud. So please stop these foolish statements.
I think that our efforts and attention are focused in the wrong direction.
Instead of blaming Topalov or Kramnik for cheating, which is totally useless according to me we should focus on the following:
1. Forcing new regulations which will prevent possibilities for cheating.
2. Giving an opportunity for both players to play again and prove who is better.
Try to imagine the effect of the mere thought that your opponent is cheating or has such an opportunity – it has a devastating effect on your concentration and thinking.
>>Try to imagine the effect of the mere thought that your opponent is cheating or has such an opportunity – it has a devastating effect on your concentration and thinking. >>
so are you trying to say that Topalov and Danailov want their opponents to think Topalov is cheating to gain an advantage.
Here is one famous joke from the communistic past.
================================
Leonid Brezhnev went out onto his balcony one morning. The sun rose in the east, and surprised him by saying “Good morning, comrade Brezhnev!”
“Good morning, comrade Sun!” he answered cheerfully, thinking to himself “what a nice person am I, if even the Sun greets me”
In the afternoon he went back out onto the balcony. The sun high in the sky over him, and again greeted him kindly “Good afternoon, comrade Brezhnev!”
“Good day, comrade Sun!” he again answered, even more pleased.
Later that evening, Brezhnev went out onto his western balcony. He saw the sun setting gloriously in the west, and called out to it “Good evening, comrade Sun!”
“Oh man, you can kiss my ass. I’m in the West now!” Sun answered.
==================================
So, please stop quoting what Topalov said in Elista and asking why he changed his words when he got back home.
In reply to anonymous 11.41.
It couldn’t have been a psychological ploy, because Kramnik had no reason whatever to imagine that anyone would ever know how often he’d been in the lavatory (other than the arbiters) because he couldn’t know that the appeals committee would choose to show the video of him in his private restroom to the opposition.
Kramnik did not win game two because of a massive blunder exactly: there were mutual blunders in a very sharp position, following which Topalov was still better but was outplayed.
As a tactic, it didn’t work all that well, bearing in mind that Kramnik lost a point because of it.
I suspect the true explanation is the simplest. Kramnik used the lavatory for exactly the reasons he gave. Topalov was genuinely suspicious, partly because of the climate of suspicion created by the allegations against him previously, partly because he’s not played a match before and didn’t realise how commonly players in matches prefer not to be at the table much. The appeals committee did what they did doing the best they could, but being crooks who have no idea of how people in quasi-judicial positions ought to behave made an almighty balls of it. Kramnik was furious exactly why he said – because he considered that he had been insulted and his contractual rights abused. Ilyumzhinov saved the match not through orders from anyone but because like all chess fans he wanted to see it end and he didn’t want to see the schism continue. Kramnik continued not because Putin ordered him to but for exactly the reasons he gave – he calmed down and decided that the best reply to being insulted was to win the match anyway, not only for himself but also for chess. And Topalov/Danailov like so many of their fans perhaps genuinely believe in the all-powerful-Russian-state-KGB fantasy they’re now feeding us.
Percy
Whether Kirsan explicitly ordered that cable to be installed or it was installed as part of the building remodeling, does not affect my thesis that Kirsan “sold” Topalov for his [FIDE] presidency
I think everyone agrees that it’s probable guarantees about a unification match were given by Kirsan to the Russian chess federation to get their support and persuade them not to back Karpov to stand. The idea Kirsan guaranteed actual victory is fantasy.
But one shouldn’t have any sympathy for Topalov on that account. Lie down with dogs, get up with fleas. Kirsan’s a crazy, murderous dictator who no decent person thinks should be President of FIDE. Support him and you deserve all you get.
Topalov has decided that is he can’t be the World Chess Champion then he will destroy the title. His actions are clear on this.
What kind of proof do you need? The pictures, plus Kramnik’s reaction to the cheating aligations speaks volumes to me. He seem to say allow me to cheat or I’m leaving. My contract says I can. Now there are pictures and Topalv is still under attack. I will never understand this thinking. I wasn’t a fan of either player before the match. But I have to side with Topalov now.
Richard Core
>>2. Giving an opportunity for both players to play again and prove who is better.>>
I disagree with this statement. It is not a good idea to give Topalov another shot at the title. What happens if Danailov starts all this mess all over again. NO Absolutely NOT.
Topalov had his chance and his behavior is not acceptable. He continues to break FIDE Ethics rules. He should be banned from chess not rewarded with another shot at the title.
But it probably will happen. And such a match would have great interest.
Hi,
concerning Elista, the photo and facts.
We do not know all about that what happened. The best estimation have had the witnesses. The 2 Appeals Committe had resigned knowing what has being happened.
It speaks for himself.
It was not chess match, only.
Regards
P.
I cannot believe some of the rubbish being posted at this site on the “Elista scandal”.
I honestly believe that neither Kramnik or Topalov cheat and I will not believe it until some evidence emerges which can genuinely support that view.
These points have been made before but perhaps it is worth repeating:
1) Cables can be found in all celings of modern buildings.
2) The cables were behind a suspended ceiling. Did Kramnik climb the ceiling (with a ladder)and take it down in order to access the cables. And then put it all back together again before he left the bathroom? Is Chessbase right when it says that each player swapped bathrooms for every game depending on which side of the board they were sitting.
3) Cables on their own are absolutely USELESS!!! If I gave you a cable you could not do anything with it – other than tie it in knots maybe. You need a computer to received and process the signals that can be sent by a cable. So where is the computer? Did Kramnik have a laptop/palmPC in his pocket that the appeals committee etc failed to notice. The only intelligent way to cheat if you are that way inclined is to use a wireless devise (YESSSSSSS like the one the real cheaters in India were caught with)
4) Danailov picking his nose or whatever is also no proof of cheating. I was very critical of Danailov/Topalov for accusing Kramnik of cheating in Elista and I am equally critical of those who accuse Topalov of cheating based on a video which proves nothing.
As for the “Look at the cables – Kramnik was caught red handed!” moron, I hope if I am ever accused of a crime that this particular CLOWN/BUFFOON is not on the jury. The fact that Kramnik went into the bathroom a lot proves that …..He went to the bathroom a lot – nothing else!
The more I read of some of these blogs the more I think they are frequented by fairly young children. Do your parents know you are surfing the internet so late?
Incidentially I was talking to a friend recently and the subject somehow turned to Chess. He doesnt play at all but had seen an article about the Elista issues and thought it was great fun. “So the bulgarian ‘Lunatic-h’ (he didnt know their real names) lost to the Russian ‘Paranoia-kov’ Ha Ha Ha!.
To the average joe in the street Chess (i.e. serious tournament chess) is a game for anoraks and stupid posts such as some of those above are just reinforcing the view amoungst the “normal” public that if you play too much you will go soft in the head like a chess professional. That is a very sad image for chess to have.
“To the average joe in the street Chess (i.e. serious tournament chess) is a game for anoraks and stupid posts such as some of those above are just reinforcing the view amoungst the “normal” public that if you play too much you will go soft in the head like a chess professional. That is a very sad image for chess to have.”
hear, hear…these “clever” people are too clever for their own good; chess is a nice game, but for all the expenditure of effort (remember some words of Morozevich?) seems small return; good for kids – analytical thinking etc, etc, etc…but all this Elista stuff plus the image of chess / the chess players we see…who’s going to put money into this…except someone really interested who doesn’t expect a return on it – e.g., the head of FIDE…makes cricket look positively like a sponsor’s dream!
Who in west is going to put money into this? Can it generate an audience? yes, people dabble, may be able to play recreational chess, but who’s going to sit down and watch this on TV? or really care too hoots about xxx-alov, xxx-isavick, xxx-azidge, blah, blah, blah? Are there any super-GMs in the west, that the average non-chess player is curious about watching?
When England won at rugby, the interst may have gone up amongst non-rugby people; when Pele, etc went to NY Cosmos, maybe there was a brief respite when it had a blip of an interest in football (no…soccer?) there; will Beckham at xxx-Galaxy really create a critical mass of interest in football/soccer? doubt it?
For all the mental activity, pity that chess can’t take off in the west…whether there’s a new USCF or no…
Pity about the Elista rubbish…
Percy, I think it was me who you were replying to. [Why don’t you anonymous people adopt an identity anyway – what are you afraid of?]
Given that Topalov had been in top level play for over a decade, I think it is disingenious to claim that ‘he didn’t realise how commonly players in matches prefer not to be at the table much’.
The degree to which Kramnik was away from the board was exceptional and was commented on by more than Topalov before anything was known about what was on the tapes. If it was normal, why would the Topalov camp have bothered bringing it up in the first place?
In other words, it was a distraction from Game 1, not Game 6.
As a tactic, Kramnik did not know that he was going to lose a point because of it. In any case, it is not a matter of how successful the tactic is, but the fact that it is being practised at all.
Therefore, again, the question must be asked: why didn’t Kramnik advise of the reason for the strange behaviour that was noticeable from Game 1?
In Game 2, the blunder of Kramnik’s just before Topalov’s is explainable – he thought he was lost anyway and didn’t see the miracle defence that Topalov had seen; in other words he was playing worse than Topalov. Kramnik was just dead lucky there was a save in that position at all; it certainly didn’t arise from his good play in terms of what he had seen to get there. Topalov’s blunder, on the other hand, is inexplicable (ie the blunders are not mutual), and without it, Kramnik certainly wouldn’t have won this game!
I agree that the appeals committee was made up of crooks (as is most of the FIDE leadership).
It was also absurd that Kramnik was forfeited, but equally something should have been done about the toilet situation so that Topalov could know for certain that there were no grounds for suspicion.
Although I give some kudos to Kramnik for continuing the match, I am not so sure his reasons were as altruistic as he made out. Kramnik had been desperate to get the match in the first place, the unified title was at stake, he was still ahead, and there was a big prize, win or lose. And he could sue if he lost.
Is it not strange that no Kramnik supporters ask for a comparison Elista vs Fritz 10 match of the number of times Kramnik went to the bathroom/amount of time he was away from the board? One would have thought that if they were equal, this would remove some of the suspicion. For being mated-in-one in game 2, and being outplayed like a child by a crude rook manouvre in game 6 surely showed that Kramnik wasn’t cheating in the Fritz 10 match!
chessbase has a good picture of the ladder. That shows the ceiling is at least 10 feet above the floor. very high ceilings and very hard to reach.
American Ladders have the steps 12 inches apart. That shows the ceiling is very tall. There is definitely at least one step below the picture bottom.
Also the top of the glass mirror above the sink should be about 6 ft off the ground. Again confirming a tall ceiling.
I feel this is very important because such a tall ceiling is almost impossible to get into the ceiling without tall ladders. This shows the entire discussion on using the cable is rediculous.
Drop the ceiling discussion. There is no evidence there.
Most of you make me feel sick….
Perhaps Kramnik cheated, perhaps Topalov did, perhaps none of them or even both did…… there is no one here who can proof anything of it.
Everyone here should be allowed to say what he or she guesses and every one should except that opinion.
But in fact someone says something and than another one starts arguing about that, than another one….. kids!
It’s neither a fight between Kramnik and Topalow, nor a fight between FIDE and Topalow, it’s a fight between you all.
After heaving read the first part of the posts I couldn’t continue….
Start discussing like grown-ups should be able to and stop arguing and insulting each other.
Greetings,
Jochen
(sorry for faults, English is not my mother language)
I love chopin, of course Kramnik wrote to Ilyumzhinov. Look at the rules for the match. Protests go to the Appeals Committee. They can only be over-ruled by the President of FIDE.
Kirsan: crazy (“I have met aliens”), murderous (“my aides leave journalists dead in ditches, but you can’t prove I ordered it”, dictator (“now I am in power we can close down Kalmykian parliament”). You know all this, though, presumably – it’s not exactly news.
chesss444, who says Kramnik was away to an exceptional degree? He was away to much the same degree in 2000 against Kasparov, who also complained (and was rightly told to get on with it). There’s a lot of rubbish talked about psychological ploys. You do whatever makes you play best. If you start thinking about how to upset the opponent, you play worse. There’s no way anyone is going to change their routine to upset the opponent; it’s just daft.
As to not advising anyone of the reason, there is no reason. He likes to leave the table when it’s not his move. Many players do – I recently played GM Kiriakov, for example, and he was hardly ever at the table when it was my move. There’s nothing to explain.
We will disagree about game 2. Let’s just say I’ve not seen any informed commentator who agrees with you.
I am sure that if the matter had been put differently any security arrangement the Bulgarians had chosen to suggest could have been made – searches, etc -, short of those which required Kramnik to change his routine. Any observer of any sport knows how important it is to change any little thing when you’re losing, and not to when you’re winning. People who say that Kramnik’s refusal to contemplate the closing of the toilet is a proof of guilt are merely demonstrating that they know nothing about sport. Apart from the obvious facts that the protest was out of time and the decision was made too close to game five (decisive in themselves) no decision that required a player to change their routine could ever have been right.
It’s worth remembering that Topalov’s side had ample opportunity to inspect the place before the match and never complained. If they were worried, they could have looked in the ceiling then.
Percy
This is definitely a LAN cabel and it has nothing to do in the wall, especially in a building that has been just build!
It is obvious Kramnik has CHEATED!
I don’t believe that there was any cheating going on. Topalov has the talent to win back the title (assuming he can keep his blunders down to a manageable level). Topalov does not need any of this crazy controversy; he is making a fool of himself. What he needs is a girlfriend! Get a girlfriend first, then second, fire that ass hole Danilov. Then Topalov will be free, happy and playing good chess.
I think the time has come, that we need to stage the chess tournament in a more discipline way.
1. Both player can not have any electronic devices in their pocket.
2. They have to sit in their seat during the play. They can only go to restroom every half an hour.
Give them some number of breaktime, say only 4 times in one game to go to restromm, after that they have to comeback to their seat.
3. Make the game shorter. Say 1 hour for 40 moves. half hour for next 20 moves, and after that rapid chess move in 10secs.
The jury sided with Topalov and was fired.
Kramnik was shaking when a member of Topalov group scanned him (but my guess is he was using graphene or similar wires and technology so the scanner detected nothing, but obviously Kramnik was shaking because he was not said it would not be detected because graphene is carbon. Probably he was wearing a whole artifact to his arm or other part with some nails or something that would vibrate or just pinch him to say the move. For example a square device with a “little nail” on each side would be easy to understand. The whole thing built in carbon technology.
All is recorded in the Akashic, first thing I will do will be looking to if I was right and Kramnik cheated. The video disappeared. The jury was fired. Kramnik was shaking…. even a bling can see what was happening