Many people faulted Topalov. Some faulted Kramnik. I said all three sides are to blame (some more than others). I have my reasons to say this and this goes all the way back to after the conclusion of the FIDE World Championship in San Luis, Argentina.
I will not take sides for the sake of doing it and I will not point fingers at anyone if I do not know all sides of the story. I am not there. Most of us are not there. Making judgment based on partial information and political spins will not help this matter.
I do not want to get into silly and obnoxious debates with some anonymous posters here. If they are not able to communicate properly to make their points and have to rely on insults then I feel sorry for them.
My interest is to promote chess in a positive way. My interest is not to take sides or get into political games. As someone who competed in the World Championship and winning 4 different Women’s World Championship crowns, I went through this. I know what it is like to be on both sides. I know what it is like to deal with FIDE. People behave differently when they are faced with extreme pressure. No other tournament in the world can compare to a World Championship match.
If I am Topalov’s manager, I would advise him that no matter how Kramnik or his team behave during game 5, do not take the forfeit win. He will win no respect from the chess world by winning this way. There are still 8 games left and plenty of time to catch up. He needs to prove himself on the board to shut everyone up once in for all.
If I am Kramnik’s manager, I would advise him to stop the nonsense with demanding the apology from Danailov, handshake from Topalov or to continue the match like nothing happened. I certainly do not think that Kramnik cheats but why not allow an attendant to be present in the restroom to avoid any doubt from the fans. It is reasonable for the fans to be suspicious with excessive bathroom use.
If I am in charge of FIDE, I definitely would not point fingers at either player. Nothing can be accomplished by pointing fingers. We need more professionalism, respect and mutual trust, not verbal insults or act like spoiled children. I am confident that I could resolve this matter and have the match continue in one negotiation session.
I would also tell the players, their managers to stop with the insults and unprofessional open letters. These things do not help anyone. They will only make all parties look bad.
The world IS watching! Both World Champions should swallow their ego and pride and play 8 more games of chess. The chess fans deserve this. Our sport deserves this. May the best player win!
The forum is yours! Fire away! You are FREE to disagree with me or other posters but try to be polite to everyone please! Thank you!
Again: I agree 100%. And not because it is you, but because what you say makes sense.
Dear Susan,
Someone said in a reaction to a previous post, that you forgot to bring your moral compass, or something like that.
Then, I was inclined to agree with him (or her, I’m not sure).
After reading this post, I think I come a little bit closer to understanding your point of view.
It is, if you allow me to say so, a political and pragmatic point of view. Yours is still the outlook of the (would be) champion, who assesses the current situation with but one goal in mind: win the title!
If you’re in that situation, probably that’s the best thing to do.
But, as I see it, currently you are not in this situation. And then again I think of the moral compass. Are values like integrity, reason and fair play really of no consequence at all?
I wonder.
I agree that it is impossible to know for certain the validity of each side’s arguments when we are thousands of miles away. And the manner in which each side issued their open letters is very disappointing.
In my view, the best the chess public can do is to say we are united that we are find the standoff and unprofessional attitude of all sides to be very repulsive and if they can’t sit down and resolve their differences, then we will lose respect for everyone involved, FIDE, the arbiters, and the two players.
We cannot control which two players have the best over-the-board results and thereby qualify for the championships.
But we can control public support for competitors. And we should let them know loud and clear we do not appreciate what either of them are doing.
If they don’t resolve this, then I will enthusiastically follow any top-level match that does not involve Topalov or Kramnik.
Congratulations Susan! Many people agree 100% with you. In this day and age were extremes rule, someone as level headed as you is hard to find. Let the games continue!
Which other sites?
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Susan,
Thank you for the oen forum. My question is this, in regard to your Win with Grace Lose with Dignity motto, which I always try to do: When would you consider flagging your opponent?
I ask this because I try to be fair in my chess, and have recently started playing blitz and bullet on the internet in addition to over the board play. Sometimes I have an inferior position but superior time, is it fair to flag? I have been accused of unfair play by not resigning when inferior/losing, but time is part of such games too, right? Do you let the position dictate whether to flag, the clock, or what? Are there any principles to suggest?
Thanks,
Carrie
I agree with your assessment of what each player should do; however, is that enough to get the match going again?
Personally, I have a hard time discerning what might be a real complaint from the players and what might be a typical negotiation tactic (e.g. ask for more than anyone will give so that when you compromise, you still win).
I only hope the players reach an honorable solution. I would hate for this match and the match system to be discredited.
Susan, I agree with everything you wrote. Except perhaps (and I may well be underestimating you!) that you could solve everything in one session of negotiation.
anon: Which other sites (have people angry at Topalov)?
Chessgames, for one. Susan has a link to there on her main page. There is a lot of activity on the Topalov, Kramnik, and Kramnik/Topalov 2006 match pages.
roper franc, there is one thing I do not understand about your position:
What (moral) blame can possibly be put on Kramnik? He insulted noone during this process. He did not break the rules of fair play at any one time (since we agree that going to the toilet cannot be seen as a psychological ploy).
All he did was to refuse to play game 5 under changed conditions imposed on him a couple of hours before the game. He did this on principled reasons. That is his own personal decision, and he will live with the consequences. He does not owe anybody anything. If he is forfeited and leaves the match, it is again his own decision, and many will understand him. He did not insult Topalov at all during all this, only demanded an apology from his manager. One may disagree with this, but again, it is certainly not unreasonable from a moral standpoint when you have been accused of cheating and the subject of several other insults.
So, while one can maybe blame Kramnik for not behaving pragmaticly enough and thus hurting “chess” in some sense, I see no way that one can put moral blame on him.
On the other hand, that certainly does not go for Topalov.
My beef with Susan’s take on matters is that she only seems to care about promoting chess and saving a match, while not taking into consideration the right of Kramnik to care about his honor and dignity. My own guess is that she would not do this if her sister was involved, but she can only answer this herself in a conscious way.
I don’t understand why there is any reason to put down the many intelligent, but critical, comments on her site as made by people not being able to communicate properly. There has been a handful of insults, max, the others have been articulate statements of disagreement and attempts to put facts right. Nobody demands an answer from her, but it is certainly wrong to write them all off as obnoxious, silly, and insulting.
-Alkelele
@Alkelele,
Write them all off? I think you were watching a different fight.
Thanks Alkelele!
This saves a lot of writing.
@Ben van Vlierden
Do you agree with Alkelele’s claim that Kramnik will have to live with the consequences of not playing game 5? I thought you advocated a replay of game 5.
Sure, as you might have gathered from Kirsans statement, one of the consequences might be that the forfeit is cancelled …
In the world of public relations, the damage has already been done. It doesn’t matter how they will continue. Potential sponsors are scared away and the world who follows big championship chess get their prejudice confirmed. Chess looses.
Not to mention that we are talking about a WC with only 1 mln. in price money. Small sport, small stakes but even bigger ego’s then the F1 chimps for example.
It’s a joke.
Dear Susan,
You are a great person with a great site. I respect your opinion very much. People are entitled to look at things using their wisdom and judgment. No one can claim that he is 100% right.
Having said that, I think that in this case (and fully agreeing with John Nunn), the matter is not as grey as you present it. Do you think Topalov (and his team) would have cared much about excessive bathroom visits had he not blundered away games 1 and 2? Kramnik was accused as being a cheater with no proof whatsoever, insulted by the refusal of handshaking, his opponent given the right to have access to private material without his consent, the Appeals committee reaching its decision without discussing the subject with him, etc. This was very unprofessional and clearly biased. Dr. John Nunn had the integrity and courage to clarify this.
Best wishes.
Alkelele: thanks for the clarity of all.
You put in light what was missing in previous commentary, and i agree with you in all.
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That’s not logical, Roper. If the cancellation of the forfeit is one of the possible consequences of his not playing game 5, he still lives with the consequences.
I have one suggestion, Susan: ban “anonymous” comments. “Anonymous” is nothing but a shield for people who want to say outrageous or insulting things to hide behind.
I think the tournament rule enforcers is it the FIDE?? have failed here…they are the to blame for allowing this mess to happen…they have the control …I also hope that if the match continues it will start were it left of at the end of game 4…I wonder if Poltics are involved here
Well, that’s an anonymous contribution that IS a contribution.
If Kramnik don’t has the right to defend his dignity, what basis is there to continue this match?
And believe me, I’m NOT a Kramnik fan. I really don’t care who wins this contest in the end, as long as there was fair play and the winner showed his supremacy over the board!
I will always wonder what really went on behind those closed toilet doors 50 times if the match continues
I do not understand one point in Susan’s post – why is it more important to think about chess than about one’s reputation and dignity. Shouldn’t chess come after one’s notions of honor and dignity? If Kramnik feels insulted and humiliated, why does he have to pretend otherwise? Obviously, it’s no longer about chess, but about his perception of what is morally right and acceptable for him. It’s likely that when he cools down he’ll agree to waive the apology requirement, but why should he give Topalov a point for behaving like a bully?
anonymous said..Come on people..etc the facts are getting clear now that one player went to the rest rooms 200 times or there abouts in 4 games…does look very strange…I think Susan has been very nutural about this situation..also her site here is about the only place were we can voice our thoughts….
All may blog all we want, the match will continue as if nothing had happened. Topalov will be reimbursed for having to wait one hour a few days ago, Kramnik will get a new toilet, and one for free to take home, both will be forced to kiss and hug before each game, and a couple of times during, managers included.
(Anonymous said…
I do not understand one point in Susan’s post – why is it more important to think about chess than about one’s reputation and dignity. Shouldn’t chess come after one’s notions of honor and dignity? If Kramnik feels insulted and humiliated, why does he have to pretend otherwise?)
I feel insulted by a lot of the anonymous posters. Should I demand for them to issue an apology to me or I will terminate this blog? Who would that harm? Other chess fans. So I put the chess fans first.
We are grown up. We are World Champions. We should be above that. We should be ambassadors to the game. The best way to deal with his opponent’s insults is to crush him on the board.
Best wishes,
Susan Polgar
http://www.PolgarChess.com
even the biased committee admitted the number of toilet visits was an exaggeration
doesn’t prevent you (or Susan Polgar) from repeating the baseless accusation (i.e. a lie)
Thanks Susan, you’re wonderful! A real Champion, a real Chess Ambassador.
Susan Polgar is biased against Kramnik.
Dear readers just imagine if Kramnik was 0-2 down and Hensel started all this what do you think she would post here? How many time she called Kramnik World Champion of excuses when Kramnik was sick?
Susan Polgar you have given the term hypocrite a new meaning.
Not insulting you. Strongly disagreeing with your stance and sentiments in this. You have been fervently advertising your blog on ICC (and elsewhere probably?) so don’t be surprised if you attract people, who come here to voice their opinions and not just listen to your gospel.
It’s just about this one question, on which I think you are very badly mistaken and harming your own reputation with claims like Kramnik deliberately provoking Topalov, when you don’t even know the facts of the matter.
Read again John Nunns comments. Those are close to 100% spot on. Think about it.
There is a CLEAR culprit here. And it’s not Kramnik for God’s sake.
If you are not going to pick a side here then you have lost your moral compass.
Would your reaction be the same if it had been Judith who had been accused of cheating and forced to share a bathroom with Mr Topalov by the biased committee.
Somehow I think not.
Forget that you earlier backed Topalov and sounded critical of Kramnik and see this incident for what it is.
You have been a great ambassador for chess and you are a great ambassador for chess, but here you are deadly wrong.
“The best way to deal with his opponent’s insults is to crush him on the board.”
It’s just, you can’t do that when he accuses you of cheating and has the rules of the engagement changed. Then one has to clear ones name first and demand the original playing terms upheld.
Topalov’s fault is not filing a complaint, the fault is everything going before (requestion private videotapes) and accompanying the complaint. Kramnik’s response has been 100% reasonable, and you have INHO been totally wrong in trying to divert moral clarity by looking for flaws in Kramnik’s behaviour.
That’s not an insult, but a statement of matters of fact. You can disagree all you want, but please don’t try to take a moral high ground by pointing to you being the blog host or the subject of numerous insults.
In fact, I find it insulting that you write off many (most) anonymous comments as silly and insulting. Would you rather we did not comment?
-Alkelele
OK Susan,
I expected this reply. I respect it, but it’s not my point of view.
Cheers.
And about the anonymous …. you could (should?) do something about that yourself.
Its ok guys…susan has her own personal views and she can say anything she wants becos this is her blog. She can change her positions many times becos she is human too. Lets just read it, if we like it its ok, if we don’t then forget abt it….
one thing is important, this is one of only few blogs for chess.
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Isso é o que todos esperamos! Se Topalov e Kramnik são campeões, que ajam como tal. Ora, “toiletgate”, isso é o fim.
Well.. maybe it’s not as bad as it looks? So far, when I was looking at some sites on internet or watching sport news in my country I had seen no sign of interest with a “boring” chess match. After this scandal I’ve read about it in many different places. Of course it’s not the kind of interest we all would be happy with.
And also, I personally don’t belive this match should ever take place. Let’s not forget that Kramnik lost to Shirov and he has absolutely no right to approach to this match. This match I think is a scandal itself.
Come on people, we all have our own opinions and thoughts, but to resort to mud slinging just because someone else has a different view point gets no one anywhere. All sides are going to have to give and take otherwise its bye bye to the world championship match. Sometimes you have to accept that even if you feel sure you are right, that you still have to meet someone half way. If the groups involved in this mess, the players, their teams and FIDE fail to do this, then everyone is a loser, the players, FIDE and every chess fan. Ok, someone might feel as if they came out with their ‘pride’ in tact by being intransigent……… its a far bigger man that can swollow some pride and give a little flexablilty.
Alkelele (although he is anonymous) is again reasoning strong.
Of course you can take a political stance, like Susan does. But it doesn’t alter anything about who’s right and who’s wrong!
If you can’t see that, you’re either biassed or stupid.
I hope Susan will prove neither.
Dear Susan,
I appreciate your work for the chess fans. I think you do SEEM biased in favor of Topalov sometimes(in your earlier reactions), but if you think you are neutral then that would make me happy and think perhaps I am wrong in my impression. I agree with your remark that apology request of kramnik from danailov is not necessary, (given what impression danailov made). I also wouldn’t take free point if I was in topalov’s place. I like both Topalov and Kramnik as great chess players, and why shouldn’t I. Thank you and I hope the game will continue!
Is it wrong for Kramnik to frequent the bathroom a lot? If it is, then Kramnik is at fault. If not, then why find fault with Kramnik? Topalov threatened to pull out of the world championship match if his requests weren’t made. Topalov’s request was granted. Kramnik threatened to not play, his request wasn’t granted, and he didn’t play. So you can fault Kramnik for not playing, but Topalov would not be playing either if FIDE didn’t meet Topalov’s request. That’s like saying: Polgar versus Shabalov play a match, each getting $50,000 for their efforts, but Shabalov wants $75,000, and Shabalov threatens to leave if not paid the full $75,000, and FIDE agrees to pay Shabalov the full amount, and reduce Polgar’s amount by $25,000, and when Polgar demands $50,000 (Polgar is not demanding $75,000 like Shabalov is: Polgar is demanding what was agreed upon initially) instead of $25,000, FIDE refuses, and Polgar refuses to play as a result, and then people start finding fault with Polgar? That’s absurd.
I am sorry but I do not agree with your views.
The person here who has made a mess of a great opportunity is Topalov and his team and the appeals commitee appointed by FIDE.
I was a fan of Topalov but I am sorry to say that he is not worthy of being a champion, any champion. Was he not the one to say “I am not scared of loosing” or some other thing to that effect.
I think their team tried using psychology on Kramnik and it went too far.
By the way, what is wrong with taking sides? Wrong is wrong and it is Topalov and his team which are commiting it.
I really do hope this match continues an Kramnik wipes the floor with him. I was a fan to Toiletlov after San Luis but he has proven himself unworthy of any support.
I think both Topalov and Kramnik have behaved badly. But I see lots of comments in favor of Kramnik so let me take a moment to comment on why I think Kramnik was unreasonable (because most people know why Topalov was unreasonable).
Kramnik’s open letter says that the arbiters cannot change the conditions without good reason. He didn’t say that the arbiters never have the power, just that in his opinion the conditions did not exist. He also made a lame argument about how it was too late to complain about game 4 (even though the protest did not seek to change the result of game 4).
So what does Kramnik do next? He refuses to come out to play game 5. If Kramnik is putting all his eggs in the legalistic basket (and a position that is not clear whether it is legally correct), what possible legal basis does he have to refuse to play?
Did the contract say that if a player disputes a decision by the arbiters, he has the right to sit and not play? Don’t think so.
If Kramnik is relying on legalistic solutions, why aren’t people blaming him for not including a way to appeal all decisions by the arbiters? If Kramnik is saying it’s too late to protest about game 4, why aren’t people complaining that it’s too late for Kramnik to protest the composition of the arbiters, which was set well before he wrote his open letters?
Anyway, I am fed up with all sides, not just Kramnik, unless they reach a compromise.
What can i sy dear sysy:
in your own words, WoWWWWWWWW!!
Im to $%”$#% TO SAY ANYTHING NOW; INSTEAD TWO WELL THREE THINGS:*
3. to vbad for tyhe chess image, and GM…
2. i have aquizz for you!!! ILL EMAIL IT AS SOON AS I CAN; I STILL CANT BELIEVE IT I HAVE TO CHECK IT ONCE MORE AND IF IM WRONG PLEASE PARDON ME; THIS TOILET ISSUE HAS UPSET MY NERVES; im wondering each time i go to the loo if i have a camera behind me!!
1. that chess exhibition of yours at NY Park looks more interesting than the stupid match for a title; WERE YOU PLAYING AGAINST MANY PLAYERS:
ill like to go one day to the famous manhattan park and play infromal chess one day; hoiw do u get there? any chance of u making a report of it one day?
SEE U NEXT TIME;
BYYE AND JUST GOODBYE:::
Well, what comment do you want about the ratings?
Tigran Petrosian in his prime (for instance) was about invincible in matchplay, but in tournaments usually ended up around a 50% score.
So what about a differrence in rating for different forms of competition with Kramnik?
The Danailov-Makropoulos-Azmaiparashvili conspiracy is just killing us.
It’s over, everybody has been pawned !
Keep cool everybody!
Susan polgar made the bold choice of telling us her opinion. Cool,+1 great player opinion in our backet to discuss .
She told us what she’s finding relevant for the time being, and what is not for her. She made her choice within the amount of material that is raising any minutes around the whole world.
Thanks for her !
To my part , i’ve another point of view nearer of Alkelele’s who pointed some other facts ,because it’s going in the way i’m thinking of.
History of the 1972 match point out that Spassky was too kind with the crazy-going Fischer and that he had everything in hands not to accept all the breach of contract that were made then.
Actually, We are facing the opposite:Kramnik wanted the contract not to be breach!
And history tell that man must not accept everything so stupid like that, or all that would be a nonsense.
dcax
Best point of the day so far
“Topalov threatened to pull out of the world championship match if his requests weren’t made. Topalov’s request was granted. Kramnik threatened to not play, his request wasn’t granted”
VERY Hard to fault Kramnik
I am just thinking that his big difference in ratings coupled with his frequent trips to the restroom is making me think that there is something to the cheating allegations.
Kramnik did not cheat! Even if he used a portable chess set this is not cheating. The rules do not prohibit it.
You really should have your mind laundered.
Ms Polgar
100% agree. I believe your solution is the best. There must be a balance between propriety and practicality.
Best wishes to Kramik.
No one should ever play Kramnik until he is subjected to a lie detector test and asked if he cheated. The rules did not prohibited him from shooting people at a McDonalds yes he should not do so, same with the 50 trips to the bathroom.
After reading all csrefully, I decided that Kramnik and Topalov have been victims of growing computer engine powers and advanced wireless technologies. Machines will bring chess to an end. Just hope it’s not in my lifetime.
The greatest danger right now for chess is the “PocketKramnik” cheat technique (using a portable chess set to cheat while in the bathroom). Imagine if people start imitating him in tournaments all over the world! (you cannot detect such chess sets because they are not electronic).
Well, if nothing else, this break in events gives team-Topalov much needed time to piece together a newly modified plan of attack.
In fact, some would say that that was Topalov’s goal from the beginning of his protest.
The pocket chess-set moron again…
Please Ben do not be so harsh on yourself. This is no way to introduce yourself!
All you chess noobs should stop the ‘pocket chess set idea. Any 2200+ player will tell you that when your bathroom has a screen with the position on it a pocket chess set it ridiculous!
Even IF the monitor wouldn’t be there then a pocket chess set is still of little use as any 2400+ player can tell you.
The only problem is Rybka aid which wasn’t possible therefore Kramnik could not have possibly cheated.
Topalov However DID have ample chance to cheat in San Luis (as pointed as by various GM’s!)…
Please 1700 noobs stop blabbering about stuff you don’t understand.
It is too easy for non-participants, including non-participants who happen to be famous GMs, to “take the high moral ground” regardless of the facts of the case. As though the two sides were equally culpable somehow. So let’s quickly review. The Topalov team (down 3-1 in the match) protested Kramnik’s frequent trips to the bathroom. In the process, they greatly exaggerated the number of those trips. Their rationale was an insinuation of cheating by Kramnik.
Without question, the protest is invalid for several reasons. The protest was not made according to the rules (2 hours after applicable session, etc.), as pointed out by the Kramnik team. Nor is it valid from the standpoint of rationale. The bathrooms were checked and re-checked, thereby precluding any chance of cheating. Additionally, there is no restriction on the number of visits to the bathroom. One further point is that the players’ contracts were very clear and precise regarding the rest areas, the bathrooms, and the inspections. These points are all indisputable and irrefutable. Hence, Kramnik’s rights have been violated in several ways, not the least of which is the forfeiture of game 5.
The only proper course at this point is for Mr. Ilyumzhinov to overturn the blatantly incorrect decisions of the Appeals Committee.
As an aside, I think that Topalov’s standing and prestige in the chess world has been irretrievably damaged. Many people, including me, had tremendous respect for both players, and it appeared as though our wishes for an exciting, dynamic unification match were coming true. But now we can see that for Topalov, even a paper title is somehow worth his sacrificing all honor and respect within the chess world. A sad day for chess, but let’s consider the facts and then put the blame where it is due, instead of retreating to our own little moral enclave.
GM Polgar, many thanks for providing this forum so that we can voice our opinions.
It seems to be a few pocketchesstheorymaniacs present at this site?
To the clown who keeps posting this ludicrous pocket-chess set theory: you’ve already stated your preposterous theory in every thread today. Enough!!!
— Mike D.
My dear anonymous,
I very much doubt if you realise this, but not only are these recurring comments about mr. Kramnik cheating with a pocket chess-set very obnoxious and irritating for the bona-fide users of this blog, but you’re also you’re committing a legal offense!
If Mr. Kramnik would deem it worthwhile, and if he could trace your identitiy, he could sue you for libel.
So, assuming you are a moron, (not knowing what you’re doing),I actually are offering you a chance to bail out without to much loss of face.
The choice is yours.
We are lucky the match was not on live TV like the Golf or Tennis Open…try to picture in your mind a player getting up and walking to the rest room around 200 times and walking back 200 times in all 400 walks..and the FIDE allowing it…that would have to be a GUINNESS WORLD RECORD…hahahahahaha
The thing that bothers me the most is that it is Sunday morning in Elista and we have heard of no solution. Therefore, I doubt there will be a game to watch in the morning. It’s a real bummer, because I didn’t get to watch much during the week and was looking forward to following the games this weekend.
I have the utmost respect for Susan; after all, she has had her own problem with FIDE, and she has been to a World Championship. And I agree that Kramnick will have to drop some of his demands, such as an apology; it’s not going to happen. But I have to respectfully disagree with Susan for the most part; I feel the responsibility for this mess falls mostly on Topolov’s shoulders. He was basically just picking a fight. His original complaint letter was illegal by the rules of the tournament anyway, as he was required to file any complaint within 2 hours of a game, not on the off day. But even if it was legal, the tone of the original open letter was insulting, all but openly accusing Kramnick of cheating. The facilities and security of these facilities was agreed upon by both parties before the match; this was the time to complain, not during the match. I had some sympathy for Topolov after the first two games; now I’m afraid that anyone in the future who is behind in a match and whines about the facilities will be called a ‘Topolov’. Is this the legacy he wants to leave?
Hoddy! Chess is not golf or tennis! A chessplayer is allowed to leave the table and pace as much as the player wants to. Your point is perfectly irrelevant!
What disgust me the most in that all :it’s Danailov conspiracy with the help of friends fide officers who accuses indirectly and treated kramnik like a cheater, using the knowing fact that kramnik’s desease and medicacy urged him the need of a bathroom.
And all that with no evidence!
Latest news give us another illustration of the bad mind of some:
All day long topalov has trained himself for tomorrow, in the same time, Kramnik was in the talking process with kirsan, danailov, hansel etc,to find a good way to save the match.
When one was giving some rest, the other one was party of some tremendous and tiring negociation.
-1 point for Topalov then. He should have be a party of the negociations! Not being there is another insult of all that, furthermore it showed that he is just a puppet and that the commander of that is no more than danailov alone, but that topalov gave some credits to these crap by that.what a pity…
A champion must act like a champion.
There is a rest of chevalry in every chess player soul. When we saw something injust, there is always some knight to show his sword to rescue the weaker side.
Kramnik: stop your kindness chevalry. end this clowny match. You’re the sole real world champion for now.
dcax, faith no more in fide nor topalov’s team.
I started this match as a Toppy fan. Nothing to do with personalities. I just admired his chess and his will to win.
I have no way of knowing this, but I suspect Toppy’s management started this as psychological warfare, which is not uncommon in world chess championship matches. The Appeals committee blew it, positions became polarized, no one could retreat. This kind of thing happens all the time in life. Unfortunate it happened in a world chess championship match, especially an exciting one like this.
What is amazing to me is that Kirsan is one of the few who makes sense to me. Maybe it’s just sleep deprivation from these 4 am (in L.A.) starts.
@ dcax
I very much feel the way you do.
But I still hope the match will continue.
It would be a shame to all of us (the chessworld) if it didn’t. Even if I have my doubts about Susan Polgars standpoint from the ethical point of view, she’s absolutely right in this respect!
I think Susan has it spot-on, no bias. See my post in the comments to today’s Ilyumzhinov entry—I don’t absolve Kramnik completely of blame and my compromise proposal there reflects that.
I think that we shouldn’t take Susan’s opinion in these matters all to seriously. To me all this apeacing let’s not take sides and fight it out over the board rethoric borders a bit on the naive. This is top grandmaster chess and there is a lot more at stake then a title. With all do respect but in no way can this be compared to playing for the womans world championship. In this regard I would value her sisters opinion on the isue at hand higher.
If this match doesn’t continue it might signal the end of matchplay in order to decide who can call himself champion of the world.
Let’s for one second take the side of Topalov in this whole stinking affair. Let’s assume that Kramnik is not the killed innocence which he would like to think he is. That is not so hard. I can imagine that his bathroom behavior is quite anoying for Topalov. Does this justify his aquisations? In my oppinion not but he is allowed to make them.
Now should the appeal commision have ruled as they have. No, they certainly not should have ruled in favour of Topalov unless they are of the oppinion that Kramnik might be cheating somehow.
Kramnik is probably not using outside help during the games so in a next match some arrangements must be made about staying at the board.
“I said all three sides are to blame (some more than others). I have my reasons to say this and this goes all the way back to after the conclusion of the FIDE World Championship in San Luis, Argentina.”
I am still not sure what you mean by this. If I read this correctly, you are making a judgement call based on some other (partial?) information?
I am a great fan of GM V. Kramnik. But consider this! The Kramnik-side knew that the Topalov-side was given access to the surveillance kamera-pictures. Then, in order to cause “anexity” and perhaps provoke the Top-gang to protest, Kramnik started to go in to the Bathroom repeatedly. All this to make the Top-bunch appear like the crooks?(If they where to launch a protest). Maybe the K-team drew first blood? I mean these guys are rasor-sharp. What do You think?
@kwregan
I’ll be so free, as to take the liberty to disagree with you upon the 100% righteousness of Susan.
If this where an analysis of a game of chess, Susans position here is that of a commentator, accusing one of the players of making the fatal error, but herself failing to give any explanation why this would be an error, much less giving concrete lines that would show this.
I would welcome Susan’s reply, that would fill out these oversights.
Folks, how do we know this is not a publicity stunt?
Consider this:
1.
The organizer is a successful businessman.
2.
We know such things have generated media interest in the past (Fisher-Spassky, Ali-Foreman, etc.).
3.
Short of Fisher-Kasparov, you can’t really generate this kind of media interest.
4.
Look around. The media is talking about it. It’s on the front page of Yahoo-News. It was even on a local radio station here in the San Francisco Bay Area.
5.
The accusations, while plausible, is rather unreal. Kramnik will need a huge super computer to help him out, a pocket pc is too weak at his level. And if he places calls to a friend who has access to such a machine, the calls are traceable. Surely a player at his level is not that dumb.
6.
A room that gives him privacy might help him think clearly.
If they make up and play the rest of the way, it would be consistent with a publicity stunt (i.e., Topalov and Kramnik are in this together). If the match is cancelled, I’ll eat my words.
SwedKink “said” Chess is not Golf or Tennis..A chessplayer is allowed to leave the table and pace as much as the player wants to….But to leave the playing arena or playing room around 200 times in 4 games… I and a lot of others think is relevant..this is the World championship..not a Marathon or P….thon
What part of the situation all of you Kramnik whiners dont understand?
1) Topalov’s team files an official complaint. They have the right to do so. It doesnt matter whether it is justified or not. There has always been a psychological warfare in WC matches. Nothing controversial or extraordinary here, whether you like Danailov or not. Topalov’s team “threatened” to quit the match, again a psych trick, like that was gonna happen.
2)FIDE rules out in favor of Topalov. Biased or not, who is it to blame here? The people who made the decision. I’m sure Topalov would have been there for game 5 no matter what the outcome of the ruling. They filed a complaint, they took a shot, and those idiots from FIDE made a (possibly wrong) decision. So far everything is within the rules and regulations agreed before the match. Filing complaints is within the rules. Accepting FIDE’s decisions is within the rules. All agreed by both parties in advance. Clear and simple.
3)Kramnik, unhappy with the decision, simply doesnt show up. Topalov, unhappy with the decision, is down there to play on. Who is the crybaby, the chess prima donna, the loser who refuses to play once his conditions are not met? This is the time when the contract was broken, when Kramnik decided to act like a chess princess. Until then, like it or not, everything had been within the rules. People could discuss the language of Danailov’s letter, the improper accusations and such, but it was Kramnik who first broke the rules and spoilt the normal course of the match.
It is so clear, stop whining and preaching about the “moral rights” and “dignity”, they are there to play chess and that’s what Topalov is doing. Kramnik isn’t.
Hi there. Just checking to see if there is any breaking news, but I don’t see anything.
I wish we had some news from Elysta. About what time do you think we can hear something new?
“I am still not sure what you mean by this. If I read this correctly, you are making a judgement call based on some other (partial?) information?”
Perhaps what she means is that she has been singing Topalov’s praises since the San Luis tournament while calling Kramnik the World Champion of Excuses, and that now it is difficult for her to do a 180 and she will need some more time before she can come to her senses regarding this matter.
Until then, she will pretend an unbiased stand while thinking up more ways of misstating Kramnik’s position.
Perhaps that’s what she means, but the proof is of course in the pudding.
-Alkelele
2nd best point of the day
“Well, if nothing else, this break in events gives team-Topalov much needed time to piece together a newly modified plan of attack.”
Topolov has won his twisted gambit already
Hoddy! The president of fide has stated that Danailov has exaggerated the number of times that GM Kramnik was going in to the bathroom. The real number of times that GM Kramnik was visiting the bathroom was nowhere nere to 200 times during the first 4 games.
What this Topalov fanatics don’t seem to understand, is, that, in the very first place, the material that Topalov used to construct his complaint, should never have been given to him!
FIDE had no right whatsoever to make the videorecordings of Kramniks restroom available to Topalov.
If this where a lawsuit, the evidence would never be permitted, because it has been obtained in an illegal way.
So all this babble about Kramnik not respecting the rules is really absolute nonsense.
The biggest winner in this Toilet Gambit Declined Variation is the press media and the biggest losers are us the million of chess fans since 1993.
Anonymous wrote:
“This is the time when the contract was broken, when Kramnik decided to act like a chess princess. Until then, like it or not, everything had been within the rules.”
Exactly. Topalov came to play, Kramnik stayed away and cried.
And it is extremely rude and unsporting to keep leaving the board and disappearing, especially since we all know he doesn’t need to. Kramnik doesn’t know what it means to act like a champion.
The same handful of Kramnik apologists can post numerous times but it doesn’t make their faux arguments any more logical or persuasive.
And I wish Susan could disable the graphics accompanied with some of the posts here. I keep seeing the same hideous countenance over and over again, which leaves me with a negative impression on what is an otherwise outstanding blog.
Ah, could I scare you away with my portrait only my dear anonymous?
That would be nice.
I’m not going to debate with you. Everything that’s relevant has been said already.
If you still don’t understand, it’s a pity for you.
I really hope the conflict will be resolved and the match will go on. But honestly, my hopes are dim right now.
We’ll have to wait and see.
Toiletgate
Topalov’s appeal:
http://img247.imageshack.us/my.php?image=toiletelistatopalovsappealqg0.jpg
Kramnik’s appeal:
http://img98.imageshack.us/my.php?image=sappealef4.jpg
Swedeking..I am a great chess fan and was enjoing the games..I don’t dislike either player..but what started this mess was the toilet breaks…The Guardian Unlimited News..this is one of their comments..”Toiletgate holds the Key to making Chess a real Spectator Sport”..I find this sort of comments are realy bad for chess and the FIDE is to blame for allowing this situation to happen
Bad faith and hypocrisy seems to be the only thing we can expect of Topalov’s fans, and in topalov’s team in general.
I hope that vallejo is far away of all that mess.Otherwhise it will be another desillusion for me of the great players.
Damned… I’m pawned too! I’m accusing Topalov for something that the rat Danailov have done!
Machiavelico!
@dcax
No, you were right there. Topalov is responsible, isn’t he?
Hoddy! It is good that You refere to me now as Swedking, and not Swedkink! Thank You very much!
swedeking..I am very sorry it was my bad spelling..I don’t mean any offence
I strongly urge You, guys and dolls to respond to my suggestion that perhaps the K-gang drew first blood!? Shoot!!!!!
Topalov is giving credit to Danailov’s mess by acting like that.
It’s his only very mistake, but what mistake!
I believed that he has a worldchampion class, but he just showed that he had none.
The bad fame of the rat danailov has splah on topalov now.And danailov turned him the wordlchampion into a tramp.
For now, the match is over. A reunification title match needs that there are two worldchampions.
There ‘s only one there.
Topalov has the right to file a protest. 50 bathroom visits is absurd, and i wouldn’t accuse him of cheating; however, it sounds at least a little suspicious. Cellphone use?
How Fide or any other organizing party deals with it is up to them. In this case, kramnik not sitting down at the table to play is beyond belief. This gives more validity to the general public’s viewpoint that top chess players are border-line lunatics. The bottom line for me – Topalov has the right to file a protest; Kramnik must play.
Having read each and every comment by the blogger’s on this topic I’ve concluded that everyone is entitled to his or her own opinion. That’s all we have. Oh, we could debate this until we find something else to occupy our time, but we are missing the one thing we want to see…THE GAMES FOR THE CHESS WORLD CHAMPIONSHIP. That is it. It doesn’t matter what Susan thinks or what you think or what I think. We want to see the games played. Period. I do thank GM Polgar for her site; so we all can express ourselves. Let the parties come to an agreement and let the games begin!!!
@dcax
I’m afraid you’re right.
But it’s a pity of the match, isn’t it?
According to anonymous, top-chessplayers are borderline lunatics!?!? Shurely You must be jokeing?
Of course Mr. Forbes. That’s what we all want, dont we (?)
susan,
what is your prediction of how this is going to end?
also, who do you believe is truly the better player?
@swedeking
It’s a wellknown fact, that ALL chessplayers are lunatics 😉
So this contributant was essentially right, if not very precise.
I have been reading the internet everywhere on this issue.
1) Kramnik’s medical condition requires him to visit the bathroom. he needs special exercise and he has blood from diarrhea. his privacy and perceived need to appear strong to his opponent precludes that he does not want to talk about it. he has the right to use the bathroom. and lets it go at that.
2)Topalov team knows the above and it is dirty to use his medical condition against him.
3) this was the 4th complaint in 4 games. it had to stop.
4) most chess competitions have no complaints at this level. they are made at a lower level.
5) with good reason the complaints have to be filed within 2 hours of the end of the game so that any changes give people time to adjust. here the decision to change was illegally dumped on Kramnik immediately before the game started.
6) this is not an argument about sharing a toilet. by the way he was consigned to a woman’s bathroom. another indignity.
7) this is all about stopping abuse. when does the wife tell the husband to stop the abuse. this is what kramnik is trying to do with Topalov. Topalov must stop the abuse.
8) this was all planned before the tournament started. a complaint for every game. eventually every person will say stop the abuse.
9) the arbitration committee is completely biased in favor of Topalov.
10) it is true that Susan has supported Topalov as the world champion. especially aroung the time of San Luis. I agreed with her and supported Topalov along with her.
Susan has the right to be neutral on this problem even though she supported Topalov as champion. these are 2 different issues.
I was a Topalov supporter. I am too ashamed that he is an abuser. I will not allow abusive behavior of me. I now support Kramnik. I know all about my being abused. I recognize it and will now allow it.
If Kramnik had played game 5 he would have been accepting abuse. Topalov would then be winning his psychological game. probably 95% of people accept abuse. it is a rare individual of well balanced good character who rejects abuse.
Those on the internet who advocate that kramnik should have played just do not understand the dynamics of abuse. go read a good book on abuse of women by men. study it well. work with people who have the problem. you will then understand.
I believe that Susan has taken a stand to remain neutral on this issue. I respect that stand. I would like to see her support Kramnik. but she has her reasons and I think everyone on this blog needs to respect Susan. if you are not respecting Susan then you are abusing her. some people obviously abuse her on this blog. shame on you. these abusers on this blog probably abuse everyone close to them in their life such as their wife and children. too bad. a sad note in life.
I will give my opinion as a Topalov fan. Kramnik is 100% correct. He is acting perfectly. Topalov is an abusive person. I no longer support him as a champion. I hope he just fades away. Kramnik is an example of a person who is a good roll model for children. Topalov is a bad roll model.
Yes, Mr. Van Vlierden, that is what I want(I can’t really speak for others). I was quite enjoying the games, even if some of them were less than perfect. That was the magic of them. I could feel the tension…I screamed at my laptop “e3-e4 NOW!!”. I loved it. It is a pity that it has come down to this…disgrace. My hope is that the player will play on Sunday and we will enjoy their magic once more.
Anonymous:
1.About the intricacies of danailov:http://www.chessbase.com/
newsdetail.asp?newsid=3372
“The Appeals Committee consists of FIDE Deputy President IM Georgios Makropoulos, Continental President for Americas FM Jorge Vega and FIDE Vice President Zurab Azmaiparashvili. This morning they took the decision given below. The gist: after viewing the video tapes from the rest rooms of the players the Appeals Committee found that THE NUMBER OF TIMES KRAMNIK VISITED THE TOILET HAD BEEN EXAGGERATED BY THE BULGARIAN SIDE”
Just do it well: stop with this nonsense a big lie of the rat danailov
2.On Cellphone use,little chessset,etc:
http://www.worldchess2006.com/
main.asp?id=927
The playing zone is isolated from the rest by a giant glass. Further mesure are made not to allow player to have contact outside the playing zone.and all that is known by all the participant:
http://www.chessbase.com/
newsdetail.asp?newsid=3374
“On a regulary basis the restrooms and toiletts are heavily checked by specialists, obviously local police forces. This goes together with the arrival of the players. The arbiters are observing all the measures. One representative of each team has the right of being present in order to observe the activities. The playing area is banned from signals and the glas wall protects from any kind of view contact and/or body language. There is not a single reason or evidence to believe that a player would have any kind of cheating possibilities.”
The restroom and the toilet are in the secure zone. There is nothing to do with that.
Both player have mistaken their way in the previous games.
The more or less to do with you’re argumentlessness is that Topalov start badly and he deserved only HIS mistakes.
But for me, at that time, it was just something that happened: kramnik was outplayed in the opening and the middlegame by topalov who collapsed totally in the end. Thus, Topalov was still able to my mind to recover, equalizing and make the world in fire!
No, it was just a dream from my part.
Just stop asking the same nonsense base on the rat Danailov’s lies reported in the new by fake journalists who didn’t their job corretly.
The good way to see the thing, it’s to watch how things happen in straight line.
Thus, nobody can trust danailov and fide anymore.
Hallo Ben! If chessplayers are borderline-lunatics, what about the rest of the worlds population? All the good people that understands nothing about CHESS?
If Kramnik has the habit of disappearing and being unnacountable for periods during world championship matches, then this behaviour ought to be questioned or challenged, in fairness to his opponents. The explanations from Kramnik for his actions are not convincing. On the other hand, there are known non-electronic means of enhancing one’s play that could be used to his advantage. Kramnik’s best course of action would be to take Topalov’s objection in a sporting fashion and defeat Topalov without the solitary breaks. Othwise, he will never be able to clear his name in the history of chess.
the one neurone hoaxie is back!
Unable to do anything else…
Hello All,
I do not think the personal attacks against GM Polgar are justified. Susan, you have contributed so much to the chess community and for this, I thank you.
People can “agree to disagree” without posting insults and personal attacks against you. I hope you ignore them.
Your record in the chess community speak for itself. Your place in chess history is solidified.
This paragraph is to each person that has posted an insult and/or persoanl attack against GM Polgar: GM Polgar’s record in chess history speaks for itself. For those posting personal attacks against her, ask yourself, “What have I done to promote chess?”
Again, thank you Susan, for the work you do and for this wonderful site.
I am playing “catch up” on current events and am, to say the least, very disappointed. I have followed chess my entire life (of 33 years) and was hoping and still hope that this dispute can be settled and a unified champion crowned.
I haven’t read the details as others have. Hence, I don’t think my comments regarding who is at fault would be based on logic or anything other than emotion.
I will comment on certain things, though. I don’t believe it is proper to let the world know if you have a medical condition (i.e. Kramnik) and, subsequently, have it debated for the world to see. This is a private matter.
Some claim that GM Kramnik might have been using computers to assist him. I am not a GM. However, couldn’t other GM’s analyze those games completed thus far and identify “computer like” moves?
Furthermore, from the analysis of Kramnik’s victories and draws, both players made mistakes. I assume that these “mistakes” would not have been made by a chess program.
I just hope that the match continues. Either player can still easily win regardless of whether or not the match continues with a score of 3-1 or 3-2. If one of the players withdraws from the match, then people will have to “choose” whom they consider the “real” world champ to be. This, in my humble opinion, would merely make the next “World Championship” match dubious for the memory of the current match will still be present.
Chess fans shouldn’t have to choose who the “real” world champion is. Either there is a single World Chess Champion or there is not. You cannot have two *legitimate* world champions.
I just hope the match continues and that both GM Topalov and GM Kramnik can overcome their differences for the sake of the chess community. Whatever the outcome, if the match continues and a unified champ is crowned, there can always be a rematch.
Keep up the good work Susan! Don’t let the insults in certain other posts bother you. You do more each day for chess than anyone else. Thank you.
Respectfully,