@tony – turn off the opening book and the endgame tablebases and even a moderate talented chessplayer would beat Rybka or Shredder or Fritz most probably in blitz, too … (chess software cheats by books …!)
who was the best blitz player? difficult to answer
to my best knowledge – Petrosian was nearly unbeatable in blitz games; Fischer was an awesome blitz player, too… Tal was also great in blitz … maybe one these three ?!
Tal,Kasparov,Anand,Stein,Karpov,kortchnoi, but i have to go for Robert J. Fischer Im not sure but i think he scored 15,5 out of 18 in 1970 (+14-1=3) And his only lost was a fantastic game against Kortchnoi(kings Indian)
I never could support this “best ever” in any competitive activity where there is no objective number to measure (like 100 meter dash. In there, it is the world record holder).
It is not possible to objetively compare people who never competed against each other. Like the tennis world is wasting millions of words about who was/is the “best ever”. Or in chess. While it is a nice subject to chat about, argue about, nobody can objectively come up with a rational “best ever”.
Fischer – see Manhattan Blitz & Herceg Novi – he even overtook Tal. Bobby was simultaneously (unofficial) blitz and official WC. Had there been rapids he’d have obviously taken that as well.
Petrosian was the World Strongest Blitz player according to Donner who witness several blitz session where he routinely beat up on Fischer. He did it in a very patronizing way hissing between his teeth and shaking his head disapproving of every Fischer’s move. The angry Fischer refused to give up and had to be dragged away to give up his seat for the next his next victim. Botvinnik never played Blitz and considered it a total waste of time
I guess donner missed Petrosian getting crushed @ Herceg Novi and in the Candidates matches – both times by Bobby – in blitz and classical time controls eh?
vohaul, its an interesting point that Fischer first proposed (that I’m aware of).
The problem is then you’d have to do the same for us humans to level the ground, and “forget” your opening book.
If you want to verify this play a strong software with fischerrandom and see how you make out.
Rybka and the rest (when using opening books and table bases) are truly ONLY playing the middlegame at which they are exceedingly strong.
For what its worth I don’t care if computers can no longer be defeated by humans. Do you care if your car goes faster than you can run? Do you care that a forklift is stronger than you? Animals had already overtaken our physical abilities since day 1. We can’t outfight a lion or even outrun a dog or outclimb a monkey or out swim a fish.
And if its about mental prowess, then can you add numbers or aphabetize a list in your head faster than a computer?
Cool, so Petrosian could beat teenage Fischer. Ever thought of researching when which games between some of our heroes were played π ? Maybe Petrosian already had some problems with twen Fischer π ? The episode you mentioned is from the Stockholm interzonal, I think, when Fischer beat other russian players Petrosian wanted to save some honour. Well, back then he still could. Some years later…you get the picture π . I always get a good laugh when, for example, one player is introduced with something like “finished in front of Fischer at tourney xyz in the year zyx”, when further research shows that Fischer was 13 or 14 years of age at that time. But opinions don´t have to be based on research, do they π .
My own list:
1. Fischer
2. Tal (remember, that was the guy often playing when others would´ve stayed in a hospital, reaching 2700 when it still was worth something and already old by todays chess standards and sick I would´ve loved too see him playing during a prolonged period of time with a good health)
3. Kasparov
I have no clue where, for example, Anand woudl fit in. Saw him analyse once when he was very young, he made Gelfand smile all the time with his speedy and tactical suggestions.
In a book about Fischer I once read an episode was mentioned, Portoroz, 1 min.-Blitz games. _Bronstein_ literally killed Tal, who wasn´t a walk-over at that time. According to that I woudl have to say Bronstein, wouldn´t I π . O.k., Bronstein won several Moscow Blitz championships (if I remember correctly), a very tough task to do.
Well, complete information is hard to get, but to base anything on one single episode mentioned by Donner, gosh :-))) .
To put it short: I would love a time machine and giant blitz tourney with many more than the mentioned players, the list could go on for many pages. As Cern won´t build me one: See list above π .
Donner’s account is dated November 6, 1963. Petrosian had defeated Fischer in the Curacao Candidate tournament and was on his way to become World Champion. The first ELO listing published in 1964 shows Petrosian ties with Fisher as the highest rated player with a rating of 1690 You may be right that by 1970 Fisher may have been stronger or equal to Petrosian at Blitz but you cannot tell just by one tournament. But you can tell for sure by Donner’s eyewitness account that Petrosian was the strongest in 1963.
There was a reason that candidate tournaments were transfered into matches π . Without the flawed system maybe Fischer would´ve been the world champion of chess some years earlier, we´ll never know. But I myself wouldn´t think, based on that tourney, that Petrosian was stronger than Fischer, but it´s of course possible.
But we were talking blitz (not about winning “serious” tournaments and Elo): The Stockholm interzonal was held in 1962 (that´s the reason I mentioned it, not because of the serious tournament games, but because of the date), here I know that Petrosian was beating Fischer in Blitz, Fischer was 19 then, that´s what I meant with teen. Maybe Donner was referring to that encounter, or did he specifically mention something that happened in 1963? Then Fischer would´ve been 20 and I stand corrected bigtime π .
Then you imply that the eyewitness report from Donner (and never forget that Donner was a very colourful person, maybe exaggerating a bit so everything makes up for a better reading for one of his columns π ) is a better fact than one long and recorded blitz tournament π (I digged for a while and found, for example, this: http://www.worldchessnetwork.com/English/chessNews/articles/5-1-1.php ). Well… :-))) , nice try, I can´t beat that π , I resign and rest my case :-))) .
To put it short: I think that the best “Fischer-blitz-player” was stronger than the best “Petrosian-blitz-player”. Petrosian was better than Fischer aged 19 and maybe better than Fischer aged 20, but in his prime he was better than Petrosian at any age, that´s all I wanted to say (all imho of course).
Fischer was the best blitz player in history. He has held some of the highest ratings on the internet “unofficially” and his score of 19/22 is unbelievable result. But believe it is true! Susan Polgar is no slouch in blitz chess π winning the US open blitz 6 or 7 times and rumor has it defeating Bobby himself in some blitz sessions in his later years. But i think that people underestimate how good Karpov was at blitz chess in his day.
I stand corrected bigtime, it was Stein in Stockholm π . Stein wasn´t bad either, but I wouldn´t put him on a “best of” blitz list, as too little is known about him and he died way too early. So, o.k., o.k., Petrosian was better for many, many years, but I disagree from about the time around Herceg Novi π . (whispering:…and I still claim Fischer to be the best blitz player there ever was π )
@jimMD:
Good point, Karpov was strong in blitz for a long time!
Any player from Iceland out there who could possibly interview Bobby on the various points in question? Highly unrealistic, I know π , but if there´s a chance… π .
From everything I have heard and read, Capablanca or Fischer are probably the best blitz players ever even though Capablanca mainly played 10 seconds a move as one done in that era. Fine was good at this until Capablanca destroyed him. Fine even beat Lasker. Of the modern players probably Kasparov/Karpov in their prime would come in below Capa or Bobby. Tal was good but I think he would be just below the group I already mentioned.
Very impressive, even a theoretical novelty against Matulovic in Blitz no less lol!
“Fischer’s 12. Bg5 in this game was regarded as one of the outstanding theoretical novelties of 1970. He produced this crushing performance in less than three minutes”
>>There was a reason that candidate tournaments were transfered into matches π . Without the flawed system maybe Fischer would´ve been the world champion of chess some years earlier, we´ll never know. >>
We know. Fischer clearly wasn’t the best in 1962, or even close to it. The next two cycles, he was afraid to play at all, despite having matches. He was unwilling to risk another defeat until he was sure he had developed to his strongest. If we’d had matches all along, Fischer might never have become champion at all. He might have lost a match in 1962 and dropped out permanently then and there, as he almost did even as things were.
None of the above listed players can boast that they become the unified world chess champion having to play and win a blitz game to win that title…it’s been a little while ago I can’t remember his name
In no particular order. Tal, Fischer, Kasparov and Anand. Based on speed, quality of games, opposition, and totally dominating and crushing their rivals by a wide margin for their respective eras. I cannot comment on earlier players but I imagine Alekine and Capablacana would easily qualify for their era at their prime.
There is a rumour that Kasparov is still active playing blitz on the chess playserver http://www.playchess.com/ and his rating is off the charts playing under a pseudonym. They have done tests (run algorithms)to prove it is human player and not a computer.
I find it interesting to note what your rivals say about you as the acid test.
Fischer rated Tal as the best. While Tal said the same thing about Fischer. You have to look at their relevant ages and who was in their prime at the time. I think Fischer visited Moscow as a teenager and of course Bobby was giving the opposition a good run for their money and they had to bring out their top guns. Petrosian was brought out to stop him. One interesting story about the legend of Fischer he played Ortvin Sarapu around 1967 and after the game they were analysing post mortem. Sarapu said all the gm’s grandmaster’s were there standing behind him trying to gang up and refute Fischers’ analysis / lines and he said Fischer took them all on at the same time and rattled off lines and totally annihilated them. That is how good he was. Fischer maybe a bit delusional but behind some of his chess claims are factual. To become world chess champion he had to take on the whole Soviet Union / rotten unethical Russian edifice to become world chess champion is a major achievement. In his game against Botvinnik which Fischer was winning and it became adjourned overnight. They had a whole team of GM’s, the whole night analysing in Moscow looking for the draw an open telephone. Fishcer was next door in the same hotel room and couldn’t sleep heard everything. The telephone bill would have been astronomical. Prearranged draws in tournaments that Fischer was playing in, whereby other USSR teammates took part in – quick draws with their team mates that Fischer vehemently objected to has been proven correct. Keres more or less back up Fishcer’s claims.The candidate chess tournmanets for world chess championship had to be altered to stop this brazen cheating with matches.
At the time I thought Fischer was mistaken about the prearranged draws but he has been proven correct over time.There is a tournmanent with Polugavesky, Bronstein and Gulfeld all from the USSR. Bronstein and Gulfeld took a draw in a Sicilian Polugavesky and probably earn some additional money from their analysis when it gets published in chess magazines like informat. It is so obvious to me that it was fixed. None of them play those lines to start with but probably had Polugavesky lined up for a theoretical novelty and were unable to play it against him. Or set a fishing trap to lure him to play this line net time and were holding back on the real novelty. So do the next best thing and have a prearranged draw and get it published.
“We know. Fischer clearly wasn’t the best in 1962, or even close to it. The next two cycles, he was afraid to play at all, despite having matches. He was unwilling to risk another defeat until he was sure he had developed to his strongest. If we’d had matches all along, Fischer might never have become champion at all. He might have lost a match in 1962 and dropped out permanently then and there, as he almost did even as things were.”
Before he became world champion he dropped out because of organizing reasons. But I agree that, when he got the title, there might have been psychological reasons for stopping to play.
To be on-topic again: Yes, poor old Petrosian was in his 40´s π , yawn. Tal won the world blitz championship in 1988, crushing Vaganian in the final 4 – 0 if I remember correctly (Garry got eliminated earlier by Georgiev) , being about 52 years old (born in 1936?).
I think back in the times of Petrosian and the likes it wasn´t such a disadvantage being some years older. Players usually needed more years to develop than today, remember: No chess databases or such stuff, no chessplaying on the internet (or writing in blogs π ). It was quite a feat to be a good player in ones teens, even more to be a prodigy like Spassky or Fischer. Imagine, if you wanted to play blitz with the best you had to travel to Moscow π . Today you have a variety of opponents, ranging from beginners to the very best (depending on your own level), to choose from when you want to train some blitz. I would render it impossible to compare a chessplayer´s age 40 of the past with today.
Or another name, maybe not the best, but known as a strong speed chess player:
Henrikh Chepukaitis
Didn´t Tal sometimes train blitz with him because he was so strong, or am I mixing things up here? I wouldn´t put him in a personal top 10 list, but that´s only because I know too little about his achievements, maybe he was better than I think. And I bet a lot of such players could be found, unknown or underrated in the west, just didn´t have the chance to play outside the then soviet union in their prime.
Tkachiev himself isn´t a bad blitz player (how about Morozevich, how often did he win the Moscow blitz championship) and get down to where he mentions Vyzhmanavin, also a quite unknown guy, but very strong. Later he mentions Zvitan and Arbakov, I saw marathon between Zvitan and Arbakov, a lot of these guys where much stronger at blitz then in tournament chess, imho because they always had to struggle making a living at open chess tournaments. But back to top-players: Gelfand was a good blitz player, Huebner, too, and so on. Not enough tournaments, too many names, too little data π .
Concerning your comment “To the best of my knowledge Alekhine wasn´t considered a great speed chess player, but I can easily be wrong here”
You are mistaken and the reason why I included him in the list is because I know of a true story where Alekine played a speed chess game against a Bristish player called Alexander who I would imagine would be International Master or near GM strenth. They played for money and the Bristish player commented that “Alekine gave him pawn odds. Right at the start the genius of Alekine was evident and he said” Alekine sacrifice another pawn in the opening to gain tempi”. Alekine was 2 pawns down. How many players would so that? He said that he just held his own to gain a draw. Alekine imediately set up the the chessboard to have another game and the British player declined. He said he knew when he was beaten.. meaning he played hard to just gain a draw and felt Alekine would easily beat him.
Any player from Iceland out there who could possibly interview Bobby on the various points in question? Highly unrealistic, I know π , but if there´s a chance… π .
I am not sure how those Fischer interviews are set up but the interviewer is wasting a great opportunity to steer Fischer to discussing Chess instead of World Politics. Eugenio Torre as a GM is as much a disgrace for not having done a better job interviewing Fischer. Fischer still sound lucid when discussing Chess. I’d like to see Fischer challenge on his claim that Chess is dead and bring up recent tournaments such as San Luis with a high percentage of won game. The fact that Fischer does not think highly of Alekhine but greatly admirer Capablanca is also very telling. Capablanca also lost interest in Chess and claimed that Chess was dead. They both had the same clear, logical style of play similar to a computer. No wonder Fischer feels endangered by a computer. Players like Kasparov, Morozevich, Topalov and Shirov are keeping the game alive.
There is a quote from Fine about blitz against Alekhine and Capablanca. So this might prove me wrong π . I did some digging as the mentioned Alexander didn´t convince me, you said yourself he´s about barely as strong as a grandmaster (not exactly, but that´s how I understood it), what would mean he´s about 2500, well below Alekhine, so if he wasn´t an exceptionally gifted blitz player (I have to admit I know almost nothing about Alexander π ) he should be in serious trouble π .
Especially Torre. I don´t expect anything from a regular journalist when interviewing Fischer, he can´t help it because he usually knows less then nothing about chess. He could just nod and say yes to every answer Fischer would give on his prepared questions, as he has no possibility to dig any deeper.
Maybe Susan could prepare some _real_ chess questions and forward them to Bobby somehow π ?
Just one add: It´s interesting that Fischer was “keeping the game alive” himself, his games were “clear” somehow, but not dull, and the guy almost always tried to fight. Personally I think that there are psychological reasons why he thinks that chess is dead and needs Fischerrandom or the likes, I can only agree with San Luis and all the rest you wrote.
I don’t understand why Nakamura is not invited to the World Blitz Championship. He is probably stronger in Blitz than a lot of the players in this tournament.
I would be careful whith your words “would mean he´s about 2500, well below Alekhine.”
From my fading memory having read his book nearly 20 years ago C.H. O’D. Alexander played Alekine/ Alekhine (the Russian pronunciation (Alu-shin) in actual tournament conditions and achieve a draw. Not a bad feat in my opinion considering at one stage he was wining the game.
Alexander said that when he had the world chess champion on the ropes (strong advantage to winning) Alekine was constantly fidgeting with his tie. Alekine was like a prowling tiger in a cage and had a bad habit of fidgeting with his tie, chain smoking, stroking his hair etc when he was agitated and under pressure. Alexander mentions these details in his book and also said that when his advantage slipped (Alexander had made a bad move) he knew the game was up, exactly by the way Alekine reacted and composed himself and resumed his normal manner after 4 houts of play. Alexander then offered a draw and Alekin accepted.
C.H. O’D. Alexander Alexander CBE, a brilliant mathematician, British chess champion and chess correspondent for The Sunday Times and The Spectator. Mathematicians were often assigned to codebreaking during WWII and no doubt was involved with cracking the Enigma code. Perhaps even bouncing ideals off with Alan Turing (regarding his theories for designing a chess computer)also considered to be the father of the modern computer Colossus.
C.H. O’D. Alexander has written various books including Alekhine’s Best Games of Chess 1938-1945.
Capablanca was a freak of nature and Reti’s quote sums it up nicely “Chess was Capablanca’s mother tongue.”
Fide chess ratings are over rated in my opinion and inflated. It is useless to compare chess champions from a previous era in that light. It is a negative way to assign people a rating. It is better to study the chess games, the level of opposition etc. There have been many British chess champions and the level of the British chess championship would be at least at grandmaster level.
Bobby Fischer had a deep understanding and appreciation of his former chess predecessors. He ranked English chess master and unofficial World Chess Champion Howard Staunton as one of his top ten players.
Regarding Alekhine/Alexander: I was referring to a previous posting: “a Bristish player called Alexander who I would imagine would be International Master or near GM strenth.” Doesn´t sound very strong in my ears, I can barely hear it π .
And still, he had a winning position against Alekhine and gave it away, strong players do that also, but weak players do such things more often. But in _one_ occasional game anything can happen. Remember Touzane beating Anand in game one? I leave it up to you to compare their real strength π . I´m not convinced about that Alexander, but it´s not that important.
Staunton? For once I have to disagree with Bobby, for me Staunton was the man who ducked Morphy. Avoiding the best when one has the chance means to belittle oneself, with or without a reason, but I assume Staunton knew why he did what he did π .
But I´ll leave it here, gets too off-topic, wasn´t it about blitz in the beginning π , good night to everybody π .
when you have your own goverment under the order of a secret goverment… ordering to kill your own citizen and blow up wtc1, wtc2 and don’t forget wtc7! No wonder Fischer is so suspicious and refuse to believe that some stinkink arab could do it(what a stupid conspiracy made by the goverment). So Fischer is/was not so crazy after all(actuall he is normal and a genius by the way).
Yet nobody mentions Morozevich? Take a look at last year’s Moscow blitz where he played 1.Nc3 in all his white games to avoid mainline theory to be used in San Luis. He’s a creative genius in both attack and defense. The way he could save his games in Argentina after a rusty performance against such strong opposition was amazing and funny at the same time.
And I’d cut Anand out of the list given his performance in Israel.
13.08.2003 The 2003 US Open Blitz Championship fielded a lot of seasoned GMs, like Ehlvest, Wojtkiewicz, Browne, Sharavdorj, Blatny, plus lots of IMs, Senior Masters and Masters. This tournament, one of the strongest in recent history, was won by a woman! GM Susan Polgar, four-time women’s world champion, took the title with a sensational 11:1 points. You’ll be surprised to learn the circumstances under which she won.
Playing in the US Open Blitz Championship was a harrowing affair – at least for the Susan Polgar, who captains the US women’s olympic team and is deeply involved in the promotion of chess in the US. On the day of the blitz championship she was awake before sunrise, had meetings with USCF delegates at 7 a.m., then took part in another chess event at Dr. Joe Wagner’s house. Her partner Paul Truong (with whom Susan did a startling interview in her last Chess Cafe column) drove her to the playing site with two minutes to spare. Susan ran up to her room, changed her clothes, then ran down to the tournament hall.
Perhaps for me it’s more easy to guess who will be the best blitz player. 14-year old Moultun Ly from Australia is already above 3000 on ICC (and just scored his second IM-norm last month in Hoogeveen).
From what I know Mikhail Tal is the strongest blitz player. His ability to create attacks and out-calculate any opponent gave him huge winning records in many blitz tournaments throughout his career and if I correctly recall he rarely failed to come first in any blitz tournament he participated in.
Aronian might be the best blitz player now, since he won a super-blitz last year with about a 90% score, ahead of Kasparov. Fischer was clearly the best around 1970. As for the early 1900s, I would scratch Alekhine from the list, because Arnold Denker told me that he often played blitz with Alekhine, and was at least even with him. With no disrespect to Arnold, he was not on anyone’s list as the world’s best in any form of chess. Capablanca was undoubtedly a much stronger blitz player than Alekhine.
Ouch, I wrote so much and am completely guilty of ignoring Aronian π , good point! Hope there aren´t any other players who were left out, Susan was mentioned several times, but how´s Judit at blitz?
I think Susan has to be the best woman blitz player in history. She’s actually better than Judit in Blitz as she finished ahead of Judit in the Women’s World Blitz Championship.
When Judith was what π ? 16 or so? Maybe she got a little better since then π . Or do you refer to a more recent championship than the one in 1992 π ?
I wouldn´t count internet “blitz” chess at all. I think the initial question, who is the best blitz player, is about the classical 5 0 and over the board. Else I would have to mention Nigel Short as my current favorite at 3 1 , for example winning against Nakamura π . I think otb and internet chess are totally different beasts, but that´s only me, of course.
Anand may be down on the list given that he lost the Rapid matches against Karpov in the first FIDE Knockout Championship. Kasparov and Karpov tied ahead of an older Kortchnoi and Judit at a recent blitz tournament. Generally the top players are also the Best Blitz players. Here’s my list.
In Brady’s book on Fischer he says that Fischer was not nearly as good a speed player as Leonid Stein, and that when ever they played fast, Stein would win. Aparrently no one here has read that.
Judit finished 5th in the World Blitz Championship (among men) as recently as September this year, ahead of Gelfand (2729), Bacrot (2707), Carlsen (2675), Sutovsky (2607), Smirin (2659) etc.
That surely qualifies her as the best-ever female blitz player thus far.
The US aren´t the world. US-championships (open or not) aren´t world championships. Usually world championships have more weight π .
@ anonymous about Brady´s book:
I read the book a long time ago, as far as I can remember it didn´t cover Fischer´s entire career, even the title suggests so (prodigy). What timeline does it really cover? A quick search brought:
Brady, Frank: Profile of a Prodigy. The Life and Games of Bobby Fischer. McKay, New York 1965.
Note: There could be earlier ones that I just didn´t find.
Published in 1965 usually means written way earlier, so the Stein episodes you mentioned could as well be the Stockholm episodes mentioned earlier π . Where and when did the ones in Brady´s book take place?
Maybe or apparently _you_ didn´t read the previous posts π . Believe me, I´m reading them π .
The best blitz player? Rybka, of course…
1st Tal, hands down.
2nd Fischer
3rd Anand
@tony – turn off the opening book and the endgame tablebases and even a moderate talented chessplayer would beat Rybka or Shredder or Fritz most probably in blitz, too … (chess software cheats by books …!)
who was the best blitz player? difficult to answer
to my best knowledge – Petrosian was nearly unbeatable in blitz games; Fischer was an awesome blitz player, too… Tal was also great in blitz … maybe one these three ?!
Me !
Hydra would be near the top, if it could only move fast π
Tal,Kasparov,Anand,Stein,Karpov,kortchnoi, but i have to go for Robert J. Fischer
Im not sure but i think he scored 15,5 out of 18 in 1970 (+14-1=3)
And his only lost was a fantastic game against Kortchnoi(kings Indian)
Geir
Riho Liiva from Estonia.
I never could support this “best ever” in any competitive activity where there is no objective number to measure (like 100 meter dash. In there, it is the world record holder).
It is not possible to objetively compare people who never competed against each other. Like the tennis world is wasting millions of words about who was/is the “best ever”. Or in chess. While it is a nice subject to chat about, argue about, nobody can objectively come up with a rational “best ever”.
Gabor
Fischer – see Manhattan Blitz & Herceg Novi – he even overtook Tal. Bobby was simultaneously (unofficial) blitz and official WC. Had there been rapids he’d have obviously taken that as well.
Fischer.
Polin
Petrosian was the World Strongest Blitz player according to Donner who witness several blitz session where he routinely beat up on Fischer. He did it in a very patronizing way hissing between his teeth and shaking his head disapproving of every Fischer’s move. The angry Fischer refused to give up and had to be dragged away to give up his seat for the next his next victim. Botvinnik never played Blitz and considered it a total waste of time
I guess donner missed Petrosian getting crushed @ Herceg Novi and in the Candidates matches – both times by Bobby – in blitz and classical time controls eh?
vohaul, its an interesting point that Fischer first proposed (that I’m aware of).
The problem is then you’d have to do the same for us humans to level the ground, and “forget” your opening book.
If you want to verify this play a strong software with fischerrandom and see how you make out.
Rybka and the rest (when using opening books and table bases) are truly ONLY playing the middlegame at which they are exceedingly strong.
For what its worth I don’t care if computers can no longer be defeated by humans. Do you care if your car goes faster than you can run? Do you care that a forklift is stronger than you? Animals had already overtaken our physical abilities since day 1. We can’t outfight a lion or even outrun a dog or outclimb a monkey or out swim a fish.
And if its about mental prowess, then can you add numbers or aphabetize a list in your head faster than a computer?
I think Hawkeye from Mannheim Germany on ICC chess …amazing speed player at a very high standard
Fischer and then Bisguier
Internet chess is “fishy” at best. You see players with WELL over 3000 elo ratings.
Then why aren’t they at the board crushing Svidler and Anand and all comers?
Because something is fishy.
Cool, so Petrosian could beat teenage Fischer. Ever thought of researching when which games between some of our heroes were played π ? Maybe Petrosian already had some problems with twen Fischer π ? The episode you mentioned is from the Stockholm interzonal, I think, when Fischer beat other russian players Petrosian wanted to save some honour. Well, back then he still could. Some years later…you get the picture π . I always get a good laugh when, for example, one player is introduced with something like “finished in front of Fischer at tourney xyz in the year zyx”, when further research shows that Fischer was 13 or 14 years of age at that time. But opinions don´t have to be based on research, do they π .
My own list:
1. Fischer
2. Tal (remember, that was the guy often playing when others would´ve stayed in a hospital, reaching 2700 when it still was worth something and already old by todays chess standards and sick I would´ve loved too see him playing during a prolonged period of time with a good health)
3. Kasparov
I have no clue where, for example, Anand woudl fit in. Saw him analyse once when he was very young, he made Gelfand smile all the time with his speedy and tactical suggestions.
In a book about Fischer I once read an episode was mentioned, Portoroz, 1 min.-Blitz games. _Bronstein_ literally killed Tal, who wasn´t a walk-over at that time. According to that I woudl have to say Bronstein, wouldn´t I π . O.k., Bronstein won several Moscow Blitz championships (if I remember correctly), a very tough task to do.
Well, complete information is hard to get, but to base anything on one single episode mentioned by Donner, gosh :-))) .
To put it short: I would love a time machine and giant blitz tourney with many more than the mentioned players, the list could go on for many pages. As Cern won´t build me one: See list above π .
ok so it was 19 out of 22 one lost to Kortchnoi. Thats even better!
+17!!!-1=4 Fantastic score by the best player ever!
Geir
@ Anonymous
Donner’s account is dated November 6, 1963. Petrosian had defeated Fischer in the Curacao Candidate tournament and was on his way to become World Champion. The first ELO listing published in 1964 shows Petrosian ties with Fisher as the highest rated player with a rating of 1690 You may be right that by 1970 Fisher may have been stronger or equal to Petrosian at Blitz but you cannot tell just by one tournament. But you can tell for sure by Donner’s eyewitness account that Petrosian was the strongest in 1963.
@ Polo_Mateo:
There was a reason that candidate tournaments were transfered into matches π . Without the flawed system maybe Fischer would´ve been the world champion of chess some years earlier, we´ll never know. But I myself wouldn´t think, based on that tourney, that Petrosian was stronger than Fischer, but it´s of course possible.
But we were talking blitz (not about winning “serious” tournaments and Elo):
The Stockholm interzonal was held in 1962 (that´s the reason I mentioned it, not because of the serious tournament games, but because of the date), here I know that Petrosian was beating Fischer in Blitz, Fischer was 19 then, that´s what I meant with teen.
Maybe Donner was referring to that encounter, or did he specifically mention something that happened in 1963? Then Fischer would´ve been 20 and I stand corrected bigtime π .
Then you imply that the eyewitness report from Donner (and never forget that Donner was a very colourful person, maybe exaggerating a bit so everything makes up for a better reading for one of his columns π ) is a better fact than one long and recorded blitz tournament π (I digged for a while and found, for example, this:
http://www.worldchessnetwork.com/English/chessNews/articles/5-1-1.php
). Well… :-))) , nice try, I can´t beat that π , I resign and rest my case :-))) .
To put it short: I think that the best “Fischer-blitz-player” was stronger than the best “Petrosian-blitz-player”. Petrosian was better than Fischer aged 19 and maybe better than Fischer aged 20, but in his prime he was better than Petrosian at any age, that´s all I wanted to say (all imho of course).
RJ Fischer
Capablanca
Tal and Bronstein
RJ Fischer
Capablanca
Tal and Bronsteinp
Fischer was the best blitz player in history. He has held some of the highest ratings on the internet “unofficially” and his score of 19/22 is unbelievable result. But believe it is true! Susan Polgar is no slouch in blitz chess π winning the US open blitz 6 or 7 times and rumor has it defeating Bobby himself in some blitz sessions in his later years. But i think that people underestimate how good Karpov was at blitz chess in his day.
I stand corrected bigtime, it was Stein in Stockholm π .
Stein wasn´t bad either, but I wouldn´t put him on a “best of” blitz list, as too little is known about him and he died way too early.
So, o.k., o.k., Petrosian was better for many, many years, but I disagree from about the time
around Herceg Novi π .
(whispering:…and I still claim Fischer to be the best blitz player there ever was π )
@jimMD:
Good point, Karpov was strong in blitz for a long time!
I got an idea:
Any player from Iceland out there who could possibly interview Bobby on the various points in question? Highly unrealistic, I know π , but if there´s a chance… π .
From everything I have heard and read, Capablanca or Fischer are probably the best blitz players ever even though Capablanca mainly played 10 seconds a move as one done in that era. Fine was good at this until Capablanca destroyed him. Fine even beat Lasker. Of the modern players probably Kasparov/Karpov in their prime would come in below Capa or Bobby. Tal was good but I think he would be just below the group I already mentioned.
Some analysis of Bobby’s Blitz Games
http://www.worldchessnetwork.com/English/chessNews/articles/5-1-2.php
Very impressive, even a theoretical novelty against Matulovic in Blitz no less lol!
“Fischer’s 12. Bg5 in this game was regarded as one of the outstanding theoretical novelties of 1970. He produced this crushing performance in less than three minutes”
EMORY TATE from Indiana,USA. Greatest speed player ever!
emory for sure.
>>There was a reason that candidate tournaments were transfered into matches π . Without the flawed system maybe Fischer would´ve been the world champion of chess some years earlier, we´ll never know.
>>
We know. Fischer clearly wasn’t the best in 1962, or even close to it. The next two cycles, he was afraid to play at all, despite having matches. He was unwilling to risk another defeat until he was sure he had developed to his strongest. If we’d had matches all along, Fischer might never have become champion at all. He might have lost a match in 1962 and dropped out permanently then and there, as he almost did even as things were.
None of the above listed players can boast that they become the unified world chess champion having to play and win a blitz game to win that title…it’s been a little while ago I can’t remember his name
Rafael from Playchess.com is the best… Kasparov the great!
In no particular order. Tal, Fischer, Kasparov and Anand. Based on speed, quality of games, opposition, and totally dominating and crushing their rivals by a wide margin for their respective eras. I cannot comment on earlier players but I imagine Alekine and Capablacana would easily qualify for their era at their prime.
There is a rumour that Kasparov is still active playing blitz on the chess playserver http://www.playchess.com/ and his rating is off the charts playing under a pseudonym. They have done tests (run algorithms)to prove it is human player and not a computer.
I find it interesting to note what your rivals say about you as the acid test.
Fischer rated Tal as the best. While Tal said the same thing about Fischer. You have to look at their relevant ages and who was in their prime at the time. I think Fischer visited Moscow as a teenager and of course Bobby was giving the opposition a good run for their money and they had to bring out their top guns. Petrosian was brought out to stop him. One interesting story about the legend of Fischer he played Ortvin Sarapu around 1967 and after the game they were analysing post mortem. Sarapu said all the gm’s grandmaster’s were there standing behind him trying to gang up and refute Fischers’ analysis / lines and he said Fischer took them all on at the same time and rattled off lines and totally annihilated them. That is how good he was. Fischer maybe a bit delusional but behind some of his chess claims are factual. To become world chess champion he had to take on the whole Soviet Union / rotten unethical Russian edifice to become world chess champion is a major achievement. In his game against Botvinnik which Fischer was winning and it became adjourned overnight. They had a whole team of GM’s, the whole night analysing in Moscow looking for the draw an open telephone. Fishcer was next door in the same hotel room and couldn’t sleep heard everything. The telephone bill would have been astronomical. Prearranged draws in tournaments that Fischer was playing in, whereby other USSR teammates took part in – quick draws with their team mates that Fischer vehemently objected to has been proven correct. Keres more or less back up Fishcer’s claims.The candidate chess tournmanets for world chess championship had to be altered to stop this brazen cheating with matches.
At the time I thought Fischer was mistaken about the prearranged draws but he has been proven correct over time.There is a tournmanent with Polugavesky, Bronstein and Gulfeld all from the USSR. Bronstein and Gulfeld took a draw in a Sicilian Polugavesky and probably earn some additional money from their analysis when it gets published in chess magazines like informat. It is so obvious to me that it was fixed. None of them play those lines to start with but probably had Polugavesky lined up for a theoretical novelty and were unable to play it against him. Or set a fishing trap to lure him to play this line net time and were holding back on the real novelty. So do the next best thing and have a prearranged draw and get it published.
O.k., it´s getting a bit off-topic, but:
“We know. Fischer clearly wasn’t the best in 1962, or even close to it. The next two cycles, he was afraid to play at all, despite having matches. He was unwilling to risk another defeat until he was sure he had developed to his strongest. If we’d had matches all along, Fischer might never have become champion at all. He might have lost a match in 1962 and dropped out permanently then and there, as he almost did even as things were.”
Before he became world champion he dropped out because of organizing reasons. But I agree that, when he got the title, there might have been psychological reasons for stopping to play.
To be on-topic again:
Yes, poor old Petrosian was in his 40´s π , yawn. Tal won the world blitz championship in 1988, crushing Vaganian in the final 4 – 0 if I remember correctly (Garry got eliminated earlier by Georgiev) , being about 52 years old (born in 1936?).
I think back in the times of Petrosian and the likes it wasn´t such a disadvantage being some years older. Players usually needed more years to develop than today, remember: No chess databases or such stuff, no chessplaying on the internet (or writing in blogs π ). It was quite a feat to be a good player in ones teens, even more to be a prodigy like Spassky or Fischer. Imagine, if you wanted to play blitz with the best you had to travel to Moscow π . Today you have a variety of opponents, ranging from beginners to the very best (depending on your own level), to choose from when you want to train some blitz. I would render it impossible to compare a chessplayer´s age 40 of the past with today.
Or another name, maybe not the best, but known as a strong speed chess player:
Henrikh Chepukaitis
Didn´t Tal sometimes train blitz with him because he was so strong, or am I mixing things up here? I wouldn´t put him in a personal top 10 list, but that´s only because I know too little about his achievements, maybe he was better than I think. And I bet a lot of such players could be found, unknown or underrated in the west, just didn´t have the chance to play outside the then soviet union in their prime.
Or read this:
http://80.237.188.68/newsdetail.asp?newsid=2095
Tkachiev himself isn´t a bad blitz player (how about Morozevich, how often did he win the Moscow blitz championship) and get down to where he mentions Vyzhmanavin, also a quite unknown guy, but very strong.
Later he mentions Zvitan and Arbakov, I saw marathon between Zvitan and Arbakov, a lot of these guys where much stronger at blitz then in tournament chess, imho because they always had to struggle making a living at open chess tournaments.
But back to top-players: Gelfand was a good blitz player, Huebner, too, and so on. Not enough tournaments, too many names, too little data π .
@ another anonymous π :
To the best of my knowledge Alekhine wasn´t considered a great speed chess player, but I can easily be wrong here (as always π ).
Capablanca, Anand
Bobby Fischer was the greatest blitz player. Tal was also very good. And you ; ) Susan Polgar are very good at blitz!
Concerning your comment “To the best of my knowledge Alekhine wasn´t considered a great speed chess player, but I can easily be wrong here”
You are mistaken and the reason why I included him in the list is because I know of a true story where Alekine played a speed chess game against a Bristish player called Alexander who I would imagine would be International
Master or near GM strenth. They played for money and the Bristish player commented that “Alekine gave him pawn odds. Right at the start the genius of Alekine was evident and he said” Alekine sacrifice another pawn in the opening to gain tempi”. Alekine was 2 pawns down. How many players would so that? He said that he just held his own to gain a draw. Alekine imediately set up the the chessboard to have another game and the British player declined. He said he knew when he was beaten.. meaning he played hard to just gain a draw and felt Alekine would easily beat him.
@Anonymous
Any player from Iceland out there who could possibly interview Bobby on the various points in question? Highly unrealistic, I know π , but if there´s a chance… π .
I am not sure how those Fischer interviews are set up but the interviewer is wasting a great opportunity to steer Fischer to discussing Chess instead of World Politics. Eugenio Torre as a GM is as much a disgrace for not having done a better job interviewing Fischer.
Fischer still sound lucid when discussing Chess. I’d like to see Fischer challenge on his claim that Chess is dead and bring up recent tournaments such as San Luis with a high percentage of won game. The fact that Fischer does not think highly of Alekhine but greatly admirer Capablanca is also very telling. Capablanca also lost interest in Chess and claimed that Chess was dead. They both had the same clear, logical style of play similar to a computer. No wonder Fischer feels endangered by a computer. Players like Kasparov, Morozevich, Topalov and Shirov are keeping the game alive.
Alekhine:
Yes, I may be mistaken:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/José_Raúl_Capablanca
There is a quote from Fine about blitz against Alekhine and Capablanca. So this might prove me wrong π . I did some digging as the mentioned Alexander didn´t convince me, you said yourself he´s about barely as strong as a grandmaster (not exactly, but that´s how I understood it), what would mean he´s about 2500, well below Alekhine, so if he wasn´t an exceptionally gifted blitz player (I have to admit I know almost nothing about Alexander π ) he should be in serious trouble π .
@ Polo_Mateo:
Yes, it´s a big shame π .
Especially Torre. I don´t expect anything from a regular journalist when interviewing Fischer, he can´t help it because he usually knows less then nothing about chess. He could just nod and say yes to every answer Fischer would give on his prepared questions, as he has no possibility to dig any deeper.
Maybe Susan could prepare some _real_ chess questions and forward them to Bobby somehow π ?
Just one add: It´s interesting that Fischer was “keeping the game alive” himself, his games were “clear” somehow, but not dull, and the guy almost always tried to fight. Personally I think that there are psychological reasons why he thinks that chess is dead and needs Fischerrandom or the likes, I can only agree with San Luis and all the rest you wrote.
I don’t understand why Nakamura is not invited to the World Blitz Championship. He is probably stronger in Blitz than a lot of the players in this tournament.
I would be careful whith your words “would mean he´s about 2500, well below Alekhine.”
From my fading memory having read his book nearly 20 years ago C.H. O’D. Alexander played Alekine/ Alekhine (the Russian pronunciation (Alu-shin) in actual tournament conditions and achieve a draw. Not a bad feat in my opinion considering at one stage he was wining the game.
Alexander said that when he had the world chess champion on the ropes (strong advantage to winning) Alekine was constantly fidgeting with his tie. Alekine was like a prowling tiger in a cage and had a bad habit of fidgeting with his tie, chain smoking, stroking his hair etc when he was agitated and under pressure. Alexander mentions these details in his book and also said that when his advantage slipped (Alexander had made a bad move) he knew the game was up, exactly by the way Alekine reacted and composed himself and resumed his normal manner after 4 houts of play. Alexander then offered a draw and Alekin accepted.
C.H. O’D. Alexander Alexander CBE, a brilliant mathematician, British chess champion and chess correspondent for The Sunday Times and The Spectator. Mathematicians were often assigned to codebreaking during WWII and no doubt was involved with cracking the Enigma code. Perhaps even bouncing ideals off with Alan Turing (regarding his theories for designing a chess computer)also considered to be the father of the modern computer Colossus.
C.H. O’D. Alexander has written various books including Alekhine’s Best Games of Chess 1938-1945.
Capablanca was a freak of nature and Reti’s quote sums it up nicely “Chess was Capablanca’s mother tongue.”
Fide chess ratings are over rated in my opinion and inflated. It is useless to compare chess champions from a previous era in that light. It is a negative way to assign people a rating. It is better to study the chess games, the level of opposition etc. There have been many British chess champions and the level of the British chess championship would be at least at grandmaster level.
Bobby Fischer had a deep understanding and appreciation of his former chess predecessors. He ranked English chess master and unofficial World Chess Champion Howard Staunton as one of his top ten players.
Regarding Alekhine/Alexander:
I was referring to a previous posting:
“a Bristish player called Alexander who I would imagine would be International
Master or near GM strenth.”
Doesn´t sound very strong in my ears, I can barely hear it π .
And still, he had a winning position against Alekhine and gave it away, strong players do that also, but weak players do such things more often.
But in _one_ occasional game anything can happen. Remember Touzane beating Anand in game one? I leave it up to you to compare their real strength π .
I´m not convinced about that Alexander, but it´s not that important.
Staunton? For once I have to disagree with Bobby, for me Staunton was the man who ducked Morphy. Avoiding the best when one has the chance means to belittle oneself, with or without a reason, but I assume Staunton knew why he did what he did π .
But I´ll leave it here, gets too off-topic, wasn´t it about blitz in the beginning π , good night to everybody π .
1) Anand
2) Fischer
3) Tal
4) Morozevich
For me its no other than Viswanathan “Vishy” Anand!!!not only Blitz..but also rapid and active chess..he’s the Best!!!
when you have your own goverment under the order of a secret goverment… ordering to kill your own citizen and blow up wtc1, wtc2 and don’t forget wtc7! No wonder Fischer is so suspicious and refuse to believe that some stinkink arab could do it(what a stupid conspiracy made by the goverment). So Fischer is/was not so crazy after all(actuall he is normal and a genius by the way).
best blitz player of all time…
Depending on era!
Anand, Fischer and Capablanca.
Many of you are fogetting Spassky. In the early 70’s there were many players but the top three were: Fischer, Petrosian and Spassky.
Yet nobody mentions Morozevich? Take a look at last year’s Moscow blitz where he played 1.Nc3 in all his white games to avoid mainline theory to be used in San Luis. He’s a creative genius in both attack and defense. The way he could save his games in Argentina after a rusty performance against such strong opposition was amazing and funny at the same time.
And I’d cut Anand out of the list given his performance in Israel.
Rybka or Hydra, for sure.
But the best (fastest) woodpusher for those engines, that would be the next debate ;o)
Anand and Fischer? Browne?
I vote for Susan!!
Susan Polgar wins 2003 Open Blitz Championship
13.08.2003 The 2003 US Open Blitz Championship fielded a lot of seasoned GMs, like Ehlvest, Wojtkiewicz, Browne, Sharavdorj, Blatny, plus lots of IMs, Senior Masters and Masters. This tournament, one of the strongest in recent history, was won by a woman! GM Susan Polgar, four-time women’s world champion, took the title with a sensational 11:1 points. You’ll be surprised to learn the circumstances under which she won.
Playing in the US Open Blitz Championship was a harrowing affair – at least for the Susan Polgar, who captains the US women’s olympic team and is deeply involved in the promotion of chess in the US. On the day of the blitz championship she was awake before sunrise, had meetings with USCF delegates at 7 a.m., then took part in another chess event at Dr. Joe Wagner’s house. Her partner Paul Truong (with whom Susan did a startling interview in her last Chess Cafe column) drove her to the playing site with two minutes to spare. Susan ran up to her room, changed her clothes, then ran down to the tournament hall.
http://www.chessbase.com/newsdetail.asp?newsid=1122
Perhaps for me it’s more easy to guess who will be the best blitz player. 14-year old Moultun Ly from Australia is already above 3000 on ICC (and just scored his second IM-norm last month in Hoogeveen).
Raffael on PlayChess, whoever that is!
From what I know Mikhail Tal is the strongest blitz player. His ability to create attacks and out-calculate any opponent gave him huge winning records in many blitz tournaments throughout his career and if I correctly recall he rarely failed to come first in any blitz tournament he participated in.
Aronian might be the best blitz player now, since he won a super-blitz last year with about a 90% score, ahead of Kasparov. Fischer was clearly the best around 1970. As for the early 1900s, I would scratch Alekhine from the list, because Arnold Denker told me that he often played blitz with Alekhine, and was at least even with him. With no disrespect to Arnold, he was not on anyone’s list as the world’s best in any form of chess. Capablanca was undoubtedly a much stronger blitz player than Alekhine.
Ouch, I wrote so much and am completely guilty of ignoring Aronian π , good point! Hope there aren´t any other players who were left out, Susan was mentioned several times, but how´s Judit at blitz?
I think Susan has to be the best woman blitz player in history. She’s actually better than Judit in Blitz as she finished ahead of Judit in the Women’s World Blitz Championship.
When Judith was what π ? 16 or so? Maybe she got a little better since then π . Or do you refer to a more recent championship than the one in 1992 π ?
I’m not sure if Judit has ever won any blitz event. I think Susan has won many big titles in blitz. Susan is also 3400 or something like that on ICC.
I wouldn´t count internet “blitz” chess at all. I think the initial question, who is the best blitz player, is about the classical 5 0 and over the board. Else I would have to mention Nigel Short as my current favorite at 3 1 , for example winning against Nakamura π . I think otb and internet chess are totally different beasts, but that´s only me, of course.
@Streetzmart2
Anand may be down on the list given that he lost the Rapid matches against Karpov in the first FIDE Knockout Championship.
Kasparov and Karpov tied ahead of an older Kortchnoi and Judit at a recent blitz tournament. Generally the top players are also the Best Blitz players.
Here’s my list.
Kasparov
Petrosian
Fischer
Tal
Karpov
In Brady’s book on
Fischer he says that
Fischer was not
nearly as good a speed
player as Leonid Stein,
and that when ever they
played fast, Stein would
win.
Aparrently no one here
has read that.
@ Vlad and Javier:
Judit finished 5th in the World Blitz Championship (among men) as recently as September this year, ahead of Gelfand (2729), Bacrot (2707), Carlsen (2675), Sutovsky (2607), Smirin (2659) etc.
That surely qualifies her as the best-ever female blitz player thus far.
http://www.chessbase.com/newsdetail.asp?newsid=3334
@ hamster:
The US aren´t the world. US-championships (open or not) aren´t world championships. Usually world championships have more weight π .
@ anonymous about Brady´s book:
I read the book a long time ago, as far as I can remember it didn´t cover Fischer´s entire career, even the title suggests so (prodigy). What timeline does it really cover? A quick search brought:
Brady, Frank: Profile of a Prodigy. The Life and Games of Bobby Fischer. McKay, New York 1965.
Note: There could be earlier ones that I just didn´t find.
Published in 1965 usually means written way earlier, so the Stein episodes you mentioned could as well be the Stockholm episodes mentioned earlier π . Where and when did the ones in Brady´s book take place?
Maybe or apparently _you_ didn´t read the previous posts π . Believe me, I´m reading them π .
Maybe it´s time to give
Rustam Kasimdzhanov
some credit. Won the FIDE-championship due to his speed-chess abilities, now won against Anand at the Corsica Masters, maybe he´s also good at blitz?
Have any of Capablanca’s speed games survived?