Will we see this scene tomorrow or has the last game been played?
I read the complaint by Topalov’s team. Here are some of the points I would like to point out:
– When the first letter was submitted by Topalov’s team (dated 9-24-06), was anything done by FIDE?
– Who is in charge of the World Championship match? A large number of FIDE officials are in Elista right now. So are the managers of Topalov and Kramnik. Why couldn’t this matter be resolved to everyone’s satisfaction behind closed doors? Today is the 4th day since the first letter was issued. How come there is no satisfactory resolution after 3-4 days?
– I do not think that the request to have both players escorted by arbiters / officials to the rest areas (not bathrooms) is unreasonable, especially after the cheating allegation in San Luis and scandal at the World Open. But it should have been resolved amicably and professionally behind closed doors. This media circus does not help anyone. And the timing of the letter will cause an uproar.
– I also like to point out that I do not think that either player has cheated. But this scandal and the implanted chip allegation make chess look bad, especially the players and their managers.
– FIDE needs to resolve this matter and put an end to this circus now. I already see some people label it as Pottygate! This is really embarrassing.This is a mess and totally unprofessional.
– If this is not stopped now, what will they complain about next? They are getting paid $1,000,000 tax free to behave this way? Can we stop the nonsense by both sides and play chess?
I think it is time to have a Chess Commissioner who does NOT represent FIDE or the players. The Chess Commissioner represents and protects the interest and integrity of our sport. The player’s union could be the ACP and FIDE can represent the other side. The Chess Commissioner will serve as the neutral mediator between the two sides. It is time for a change NOW!
Here is another newspaper clip:
SOFIA NEWS AGENCY 9-28-06
Bulgaria’s chess king Vesselin Topalov has questioned the behaviour of his rival Vladimir Kramnik, who holds on to 2 point lead in their world championship match.
In a press release to the Organizing Committee of the match, Topalov’s manager Silvio Danailov says the careful study of the video recordings from the rest rooms done by the technical experts of the Bulgarian team revealed that after each move Kramnik immediately headed to the rest room and from it directly to the bathroom.
During every game he visited the relaxation room 25 times at the average and the bathroom more than 50 times – the bathroom is the only place without video surveillance, the press release says.
“Unlike Mr. Kramnik, the World Champion Veselin Topalov spends his time mainly at the playing table. The average number of times he visited the rest room and the bathroom is 8 and 4 respectively.
“Danailov point outs that the bathroom is the only place without video or audio surveillance and says the facts are quite strange, if not suspicious.
Topalov’s team insists the use of the rest rooms and the adjacent bathrooms for both players to be allowed only with permission from the Arbiter and accompanied by an assistant arbiter.
“Should this extremely serious problem remain unsolved by 10.00 o’clock tomorrow (September 29th, 2006), we would seriously reconsider the participation of the World Champion Veselin Topalov in this match,” the letter concludes.
Unless FIDE is run by someone other than Kirsan, I don’t think having anyone with supervisory powers will have any influence at all.
There is a Chief Arbiter for the match isn’t there? That is where the issue must be handled.
The chip implant allegation I find rather hilarious. As far as the bathroom intervals, FIDE should’ve thought about this earlier, this is one of the most obvious ways one could cheat. I don’t think the demands are unreasonable, I think they should have been thought about earlier. FIDE dropped the ball, again.
Here is what I think:
1) Claiming that Topalov (or anybody) has a chip implanted in his skull is obviously a naive assertion. It is not possible, nor desirable, to have a foreight material inserted in your brain when you are one of the most brilliant chess players of the present time. So I do not think anybody with some common sense and basic knowledge of biology and electronics will buy this.
2) Nobody – NOBODY – who has enough health to fly in a plane and is not pregnant has a phisiological need to urinate fifty times in five hours. So this is definitely fishy.
3) I think FIDE should have answered the first letter. The points made in the letter sound totally reasonable and fair. By ignoring the first letter, FIDE would only be making things worst.
4) Making this problem public seems like a logic thing to do after three days with no answer, in cas this is how it was.
5) If I were Kramnik, and I wanted to prove that I am not using any device or external help, I would not mind using a glass bathroom so that it is totally transparent that I am playing a fair game.
I am somewhat dissapointed by this reunification match. The playing has been erratic at times, and this thing about the bathroom has come to top things over.
Roberto
To kalistenos: “a glass bathroom” – this is cool! And all process should be broadcasted in real time.
Until Kirsan is gone, you won’t see any real reform of professional Chess. This is his little fiefdom, just like Kalmykia itself.
And shouldn’t the arbiter have settled this?
Let us assume that Kramnik’s illness requires him to strech his legs, as has been sugested in a previous comment. Why, after the first complaint – which was presented several days ago – hasn’t Kramnik done his excercises in the resting room instead of the bathroom. I can imagine that the resting room should be more comfortable than the bathroom, since there is no toilet and basin, and you can stretch at will.
I wonder whether Kramnik, during the press conference and the opening ceremony, had to go to the bathroom every 7 minutes. If not, then why does he starts wanting to go when the game starts?
It does not matter whether he is cheating or not: what matters is that there is an official complaint from three or four days ago, that is serious, and has gone unattended. FIDE is behaving poorly, and the name of Chess at the highest level is being tainted. Again.
Dear Susan,
I find this complaint just provocative, and having nothing in common with cheating allegations, and with fair play rules mentioned by Mr.Danailov.
Here is why: Mr. Danailov mentions Kramnik’s bathroom schedule before the move 16, which was made in accordance to computer recommendations. But Topalov’s response was obvious, and Kramnik misstepped with move 17. If he really used computer assistance, he would play Ne4 without doubt.
Can somebody believe Vlad is so stupid he can’t remember more than 1 move during computer analysis?
Mr. Danailov is just trying to break Kramnik’s psychological dominance with pretty dirty tricks, nothing more and nothing less.
First letter mentioned here was written Sept.24, and:
1) was not an official complaint;
2) had nothing to say about frequency of Kramnik’s visits to the rest room or to the bathroom;
3) according to FIDE, the first letter matter was fully resolved by Sept.26.
The second letter contains only new suspicions, no single repeat from the first letter. And while the first letter was legitimate, the second one is just a psyco attack, IMHO.
I highly doubt that Kramnik was using computer help; if he was the major blunders would not have been made in the first and second game. As well, he didn’t go to the bathroom after Topalov moved, but after he himself moved, so he would not be able to input Topalov’s moves, or the such. I myself sometimes exhibit similar behavior at tournaments, to that which Kramnik is exhibiting.
As well, I highly doubt that Kramnik would risk his reputation, prestige, and career over a lack of self-confidence. His moves remain in his style and it is ridiculous to assume he is cheating, not to mention the vast amount of moves which disagree with computers.
There can be many reasons for Kramnik doing what he is doing. One of which may very well be to psychologically mess with Topalov; in my opinion this ridiculous affair is reminiscent of the purple yogurt affair and the psychics.
These allegations are simply the complaints of a fearful loser who wnats to make an excuse, though it may not even be him. Has anyone actually seen what Topalov himself has to say on this matter, rather than simply his team?
By the way, we all know that Kramnik suffers from rheumo artritis.
Sitting for hours without moving before the board is just the worst thing to do when having this illness.
According to doctors, rheumoartritis requires doing frequent exercises (which can look unpleasant, by the way) to make muscles flexible and relaxed, and to prevent pain and miscomfort feelings during the game.
Vlad could visit the bathroom to do these exercises in private, without videos being sold on eBay.
And Mr.Danailov, being very well informed about Kramnik’s health conditions, mentions fair play! What a joke!
Geurt Gijssen NED (Chief Arbiter) handeled this poorly. He should have taken basic measures against cheating, so credibility of this important match would not be impacted. Ignoring an official player’s claim is unprofessional and unacceptable even at the local tournament. FIDE failed to hire competent people. I agree with Susan that escort by arbiters to the restroom is reasoanable and that the netural mediator is needed. Every month we read about some World Championship scandals.
anonymous,
What makes you think the Chief Arbiter handles it poorly? This was an open letter. The claim was made by Danailov in public at the same time arbiters got the letter.
Mr.Danailov’s main goal was not to find reasonable solution to his concerns, but to make accusations as loud as he can to break Kramnik’s stability during next games.
I just have feeling Mr. Danilov just started his own game. Will he gain something? I doubt. Kramnik and his team ashould be well aware of such intrigues history and how to counter to them. I accept a strick response by them.
Another interesting observation can be made about Topalov’s strategy in this match. It leaves impression Topalov somehow unconciuosly gave up idea to beat Kramnik by playing his own game(what actually Kramnik is doing now).Perhaps concentration on undirect circumstances (health, psychological aspects)was too much emphasized in match’s preparation.
Topalov needs to forget these things in order to win the match.
Vlad,
about which accusations of Danailov’ letter you’re talking about?
You are fighting against the shadows me thinking 🙂
Although I don’t believe Kramnik is cheating, Topalov is within his rights to be suspicious if Kramnik is hitting the rest room 50 times a game.
Going forward it would be in everyone’s interst to closely monitor activities away from the chessboard.
I think FIDE should assign a common restroom to both players and make sure no one approaches this restroom during the course of the game.
None of this is too hard to implement considering the expense that FIDE went thru to create the electronic vacuum etc.
I will give Kramnik the benefit of the doubt on why he had to frequent the rest room in the past but.. I would be highly suspicious if he can’t accomodate these requests.
regards.
I don’t think sharing the bathroom is acceptable. First of all, nobody can imagine what could happen if both players meet there under so high psychological pressure. And even more, nobody could provide any proof if, for example, one player punches or treatens bad the other one.
May be, video or personal monitoring could become the solution, but Danailov had to mention this before the match! Rules are already accepted and should be followed; behaving like Bobby Fischer who loved to make new demands after every second game is not the way Mr.Danailov should choose, IMHO.
We know neither player is cheating.
But both players deserve an environment that is free of any odd appearances that even hint at the possibility of cheating.
There must be several simple ways to confirm and ensure there is no Fritz in the bathroom.
anonymous, here is excerpt from Danailov’s letter where he says he is suspicious:
“We would like to once again remind you that the bathroom is the only place without video or audio surveillance.
In our opinion these facts are quite strange, if not suspicious.”
Kramnik has found a routine that works for him. He walks around a lot. Maybe he doesn’t like the lounge area. Maybe he just paces and he winds up in the bathroom. He’s probably not even thinking about it.
Going into the bathroom too often is, in itself, not evidence of cheating. And I would say that Kramnik’s rate of errors thus far (such as missing a mate in 2) is evidence that he is not cheating.
But Danailov isn’t making allegations of cheating now, is he … he’s making allegations that Kramnik goes into the bathroom too often. ’tis true, but so what — Kramnik is dominating psychologically.
I heard someone suggest audio monitoring of the bathroom. Why? So we can hear rude bodily noises? No thanks, if I wanted that I’d go to a boys tournament.
All this proves is one of two things:
Either
1. Kramnik is cheating
2. Topalov is proving he is also a bigger baby than Kasparov.
I would ask a question for you dear Susan.
If the hidden reason of Topalov letter is to suppress the rest rooms to make Mr Kramnik less free to make his frequent health exercises and add disconfort caused by his illness over the board.
Would you continue to support in total honesty and fairness Mr Topalov ?
Will you consider it from a sporting point of view fair ?
I hope not.
sincerely yours
My guess is, all reasonable measures to prevent cheating were implemented. As Danailov asked, Topalov’s representatives participate in Kramnik’s restroom and bathroom inspections, and nobody is allowed to enter these rooms during games.
Of course, we can imagine that tricky Vlad bought some high end secret service devices, and have it implanted in the bathroom wall, he could also have a hidden door there with supercomputer terminal, phone, fax, and railway tunnel directly to the Gogolevsky Blvd in Moscow where all Russian top GMs do analysis for him.
I believe, in addition to my prior commments, that it being an open letter was unneeded. It is simply slander and discredits Kramnik’s reputation as a chess player and as a decent person. I think what Topalov’s team is despicable, moreso because of the way they are going about it; in a way that if Kramnik wins there will always be doubt of whether he deserved it.
Didn’t you read that one bath had an open window? With an open window, endless possibilities exist, including infrared devices.
t. ilhote,
I am not Susan, of course, but my hope is, Topalov did not discuss with Danailov these steps. There is a small chanse he does not even know about this letter. He does chess, and everything else is done by Danailov. This does not mean he is not responsible for his team, but if we want to hear his opinion we need to wait until the match is gone. Of course, he can say, they just wanted an explanation of a suspicious activities, but whay did not they ask in private first?
According to0 the first Danailov’s letter, the bathroom with open window was Topalov’s one.
And I can’t understand why Topalov could not close it himself.
Although I generally agree with the tone of your comments Susan (that things should be handled behind closed doors)…I must say that the following:
“I do not think that the request to have both players escorted by arbiters to the restroom is unreasonable” …is not something I find reasonable at all….in fact, I find that absurd.
I wrote an e-mail to ChessBase.com registering my disgust with Topalov’s manager, and wondered how it was possible Topalov and his team would allow such idiocy to be published everywhere. What a shame.
Ben Finegold
I often agree with Susan that a change is necessary, but not now. There is no evidence of any players’s misconduct, only Danailov’s hysteria. In his first letter he complained, among other things, that the windows in Topalov’s room were open. Is that so horrible? It’s simple enough to close the windows, much simpler than make an official complaint.
Kramnik has health problems, he also is a smoker. If smoking is not permitted in the public areas, he’ll run to the bathroom to smoke. He might just like to get away from the cameras. His digestive system might overreact to pressure. Since the players and the premises are inspected before the games, their bathroom habits should be left alone. What’s next? Playing naked, going to the bathroom right before arbiters’ watchful eyes? Taking urine specimens after every good move?
I think that in this case grace and dignity that are often evoked by Susan Polgar would mean shutting up Danailov and letting the players play. Maybe there needs to be a rule that once a match starts, managers need to leave the place or observe total silence.
Vlad, you are missing the point. If Topalov’s window was open, what prevents Kramnik’s window from being open, too?
Well, even if Topalov’s window was closed, what would prevent the Kramnik’s window to be open?
Danailov should request to brick up all windows and ventilation grills 🙂
But again, before the match began. They had inspected rooms before the match, and were satisfied.
I would agree with Mr. Finegold if there had not been a recent incident of cheating associated with frequent visits to the bathroom in the World Open. The case is not the same, of course. But yet again…
Let us accept that this is paranoia of the manager of Topalov. What has Kramnik to lose if he is the bigger person and says: “You know what? I will not have my name soiled. I will use a different bathroom, and I don’t care if the whole crew of CNN comes with me when I have to pee.” Now, THAT would clear all doubts and the manager of Topalov’s team would look like a jackass. That is the right way to react.
But to pretend that there is no problem at all when your guy is going to the can 50 times a game, boy, that is not going to fly.
I have just read in Soviet Sport that the committee investigating the issue is conscientiously counting the number of Kramnik bathroom visits, but does not come up with 50, so they try again and again.
Such episodes belong in Marx Brothers movies, not in an elite chess match. In a comedy it would be funny, but as it is, it’s totally infuriating. Danailov blabs, but Topalov comes out looking bad. Who, do you think, will agree to be the commissioner, if the job description involves checking in detail what the players do in the bathroom?
Until today I did not care who wins this match, both players had their pluses and minuses, but now I hope Kramnik wins. He definitely has more grace and dignity. As for cheating – I am sure that neither cheats, their uneven playing seems to prove that.
“What has Kramnik to lose if he is the bigger person and says: “You know what? I will not have my name soiled. I will use a different bathroom, and I don’t care if the whole crew of CNN comes with me when I have to pee.” Now, THAT would clear all doubts and the manager of Topalov’s team would look like a jackass. That is the right way to react.”
He will lose all minutes of privacy and of being outside the public eye. Maybe he needs to be away from cameras to concentrate. This is not a theater, and Kramnik is not an actor, he may dislike intense attention to his persona. This does not make him a cheater or an unreasonable man. As a rule, do we all want to cave in to every hysterical demand, just to make sure nobody suspects us of something? If next Danailov complains that Kramnik’s tea is the wrong color, will we expect him to switch to mineral water?
Even if the count does not come out to be 50, even if it comes to be 45 or 57, that won’t solve the issue, which was clearly stated in the second letter, and alluded in the first:
a) The bathrooms have no surveilance
b) The bathrooms have windows that can be opened
c) At several times of the game, Kramnik went to the bathroom repeatedly, as often as three times between a single pair of moves (!)
Unless Kramnik is taking diuretics or has a sever bladder problem, this behavior is unusual to say the least.
Grace and dignity imply a sense of respect for yourself and others. Why the Topalov team did not complain about the window at first, well, that’s a good point and they are to blame for that.
However, Kramnik has everything to win by either explaining what’s going on (a good explanation is: I am taking this prescription, and so and so), or just use another bathroom with an escort. Who cares! Let nobody soil your name.
I don’t care who wins, as long as he wins with his own brain.
I will withdraw my case for the common restroom seeing that it would cause an issue if they both wanted to go at once.
But, as long as their individual restrooms are monitored and no one is allowed to go into it, it does not matter how many times Kramnik uses it.
I am assuming they are both individually searched on arrival.
This is a dispute that can be easily settled.
I do think that people should be allowed to go to the restroom 50 or 100 times if they feel like it so long as there is a general agreement on the ground rules so both parties can feel comfortable.
The Arbiter sidekick may be unnecessary as long as FIDE makes sure no is tampering with the rest rooms during the match.
It sounds like Kramnik is smoking heavily during the game and he should be allowed to do so while Topalov is within his rights to feel more secure.
“I would agree with Mr. Finegold if there had not been a recent incident of cheating associated with frequent visits to the bathroom in the World Open. The case is not the same, of course. But yet again… “
It is in fact very different, because in the world open the player in question was lowly rated for the open section, playing beyond his rating and winning every game against grandmasters. He was suspected first by his play.
Without the chess performance, the bathroom trips become irrelevant.
Also, at the world open, the player in question was not suspected of receiving moves in the rest room. Rather, he fled into the restroom where he remained for 45 minutes after he was told there was suspicion of cheating. The context is what makes the bathroom incident suspicious at the world open.
Here, there is no such context. I grant you that it’s unusual to enter the restroom so often, but that doesn’t make it evidence of cheating. Otherwise everything unusual is suspect, irrespective of the chessboard and the players. Players cannot demand that all unusual things be eradicated. It’s childish and disrupting.
It is making a mockery of the game, whenever there is a serious event, for chess professionals to start acting like 6 year olds, and it’s about time that this history of nonsense stop.
I would recommend a very simple solution: put a camera in each bathroom. There should be no area in the playing hall without surveillance.
Privacy concerns? Let’s see.
Every time a person goes to an ATM to withdraw money there is a camera filming his every move. Even the dressing rooms of department stores in the US have cameras. Airport checkpoints. Elevators. Halls in public buildings. There are cameras everywhere. Filming can go encrypted to a black-box that will only be accessesed by top officials in the presence of members of both teams.
If the filming reveals that Kramnik is not doing anything related to cheating in the bathroom, no problem. However, if it reveals that he is looking through the window, what will we think? That he likes Elysta’s landscape so much that he can’t resist to stay put in his chair? How old is he, 8?
It is not far fetched to transmit such a simple information as 3-4 via light pulses. Pulse pulse pulse, pause, pulse pulse pulse pulse. There you go. Move to c4.
There is nothing remotely interesting in Kramnik using the toilet. Fears that the filming could be stolen and sold on eBay are preposterous.
If he has nothing to hide, that would be a solution.
There is an article published in the NYT, with the opinions of Seirawan and Short included.
Both seem to think that this affair is quite an exaggeration or sign of nervousness from Topalov’s camp, as they are in fact in tne hole for the moment.
Article NYT
Roper Franc,
ATM is not a bathroom. No bank have cameras in bathrooms.
Regarding the letter itself, the manner in which it was presented, clearly shows that it’s main goal is not to resolve concern, but to make the opponent out of control. If I was arbiter, I would reject the claim as baseless, because:
1) no single rule was violated by Kramnik, by his team, or by organizers;
2) all rooms and bathrooms were inspected by Topalov’s representatives before the mathc and before the game, and they had no concerns so far.
Topalov is not Fischer, and Ilumzinov is not Spassky. FIDE will sue Topalov for millions of material and moral losses if he leaves the scene.
If Kramnik accepts changes to the match rules, he will lose in my eyes, and make Topalov much more confident. This will be the big mistake.
I would just like to say this accusation is ridiculous.I do not believe that ANYONE is cheating and I would just liken it to NERVES nothing more.However I do understand how Topalov’s team could look at this as suspicious behavior and maybe the accusations are flying because of Topalov’s present positon in the match and tension.The question is will we have a game tomorrow on 9/29/06? I hope all will be resolved and yes they BOTH should be escorted to the restroom from now on!
FWCC
“15.54 – Kramnik plays move 15
15.55 – Goes into the bathroom
15.56 – Goes out of the bathroom
15.57 – Goes into the bathroom 15.59 – Goes out of the bathroom
16.03 – Goes into the bathroom 16.04 – Goes out the bathroom
16.07 – Comes out for move 16″
my explanation:
15.54 Kramnik plays qd3
15.55 Kramnik lights a cigarette in the bathroom and places it near the window
15.56 Kramnik walks up and down, calculating the position, he needs to open the bathroom door, leave the bathroom, enter the bathroom again by opening the bathroom door to have the opportunity to smoke; at least he stubbed out the cigarette 15.59 still calculating the position
16.03 Kramnik enters the bathroom again to open the window and to eat a peppermint.
16.07 Topalov has played rc8, and kramnik plays the pseudo sac bg5
i’m a smoker, too, and being nervous, e.g. during chess games, i can not sit for longer than one move, i’m in need to walk up and down, even outside the tournament room, and sometimes i place burning cigarettes outside, to have the opportunity to come back, have a look on the position, going out to my cigarette, and so on.
calm down folks, there is nothing suspicious with Kramniks bevaviour.
just my two pence, Vohaul
Wow! There must be some great Playboy magazines in Kramnik’s bathroom!