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Definitely Bobby Fischer
Nothing against Karpov, but he won by default against Fischer and beat Korchnoi twice.
Fischer wins easily 12.5 to 8.5
same score of his win vs. Spassky
Fischer to win the 1st match by a point or two. Karpov to win the return match by 2-4 pts.
Games will be closed & tight in nature. If you follow Fischer’s games, the only way Fischer really overcame Petrosian’s (in)famous style was by mimicking. The same too with Spassky in 69. He only had a relatively easier time to win when Petrosian attempted a livlier brand of chess. Karpov is very similar in style to Petrosian.
Bobby , unless he gave games away . I doubt his psychological warfare would work on Karpov as well as it did on Spassky.
throw stones at me – but in a match fischer vs. karpov – let’s say in 1976 or so, fischer would not had any chance to win it – he would have stood alone against THE apparatus, especially the mighty sovjet chess organization (and its influences on world chess those days did not fully patronize the “bon vivant” spassky but it helped a karpov seeing the light of the day …)
those influences were still strong in that first karpov – kasparov match – (do you remember?)
so – i think – karpov would have won the title in a match vs. fischer – as he did by “green table decision”…
and he hold it – for a long long time –
karpov is a great chess player – for sure one of the greatest (and he has proven it and still proves it nowadays WITHOUT any protection!
– but seemingly it is his destiny – to have never ever played THE match, THE one and only, which could have destroyed the legend of Robert James Fischer. keep ‘ur head up, anatoli!
(Fischer destroyed his legend by himself … in political, racistic and antisemitic utterances – my opinion!)
now you all are wellcome, to throw the above mentioned stones …
greetings, by Vohaul 🙂
I’ll say Fischer, but I hope that Susan will post her thoughts too. Thanks!
who really knows….I think Karpov would have given Fischer a run for his money…..but he tended to be a little (fragile) when tired back then so I think its a crap shoot…though it would have been fun to watch…..even today I’d like to see Fischer accept Karpovs challenge…though at this point I would not expect Fischer to accept,,,or even have any chances of winning.
Mike M
Must agree with Vohaul (Karpov win), but in a longer match, which Fischer insisted in, Karpov would have had a hard time, because of his weaker physical strength.
What happened in the next WC match in 1978 (Karpov-Korchnoi) can be read about in Korchnoi’s “Antichess”. Something similar would have happened in the Fischer-Karpov match, I think.
Kasparov was later the only won able to beat Karpov, but only after tons of draws, breaking Karpov down.
Susan, what were some of the other unplayed matches that would have been interesting? Morphy versus Staunton comes to mind.
“Spassky was crushing Karpov all through his career”??
According to chessgames.com, Anatoli Karpov beat Boris Spassky 16 to 2, with 24 draws.
It is crushing, but the other way around.
I think Karpov himself has said Fischer would have won a 1976 match but Karpov likely would have run a rematch. Really though, this kind of question can’t be considered without taking Fischer’s personal quirks into account. The most likely outcome is the one that actually happened: no match, or certainly no rematch.
I think it would have been a better match than against Spassky. That said Fischer having the World Champion Crown would have had the intimidation factor and experience in this type of a match. Karpov likes positional complicated games, where Bobby was a relentless attacker by nature. a good analogy would be Karpov (The Dolphin) and Bobby (The great white shark) lol. Fischer would really have been prepared for this match and Karpov would have had a Soviet team the size of Nasa! Fischer’s intense pyschological makeup would have had to work himself up like a Marine getting ready to hit the beach! Bobby would have had to fight himself, the organizers, the crowd noise but when he finally settled down he would play brillant chess and defeat Karpov soundly.
TFK
played*
Kasparov says that karpov would have won without a doubt.
I think karpov. Karpov’s profilactic and positional play would have break Fischers nerver.
Karpov would have won. Otherwise, Fischer would have played.
People who envy their superiors always make ridiculous state-ments like this. Garry Kasparov has said Bobby Fischer was his idol growing up, why do you think Garry was influenced to improve on the Najdorf throughout his chess career.
TFK
The reason Fischer didnt play The 1975 match was he would not be compromised by The Russian controlled FIDE. He is a man of very rigid principles that he wont relinquish. Bobby said the Russians had their way for 48 years and that just 1 time he wanted as legitimate Champion to name the conditions he asked for and that he would never ask for this kind of control again. The Russian FIDE were afraid of Fischer and knew if they could stall and complicate the process they would win as like many times in the past with fixed situations, ie.(Korchnoi-Karpov), or matches like Botvinnik who was given free reign of all conditions. Why do you think Botvinnik was champion for so long!
TFK
Who would have won in 1975 if they would have played, contrary to Kasparov’s obfuscated remark Fischer would have won for sure. Even Karpov himself admitted this in an interview this year. As for later on eventually Karpov or Kasparov would have beaten him, but what great Chess battles these would have been if we had Fischer, Karpov and Kasparov competing in tournaments and matches.
Karpov’s place in history among the WCChampions is tricky to guage. I think the year was 1987, Karpov had Kasparov 99.9% defeated in a rematch that would have returned the WCC title to Karpov. But then Karpov blundered late in the last game, giving Kasparov a tied match to retain Kasparov as WCC.
Had that one silly blunder not occurred, Karpov would be perceived very differently today, probably as being the equal of Kasparov – who is widely seen as the greatest player of all time (tho comparing across eras in history is often bogus).
Yet in 1978 Karpov was only barely able to defeat Viktor Korchnoi. Fischer in the early 1970’s would have defeated the great Korchnoi by a commanding margin.
So which is the real Karpov?
Personally I think Karpov would have won the match with Fischer that they very very nearly signed to play in 1978 (read the book ChessDon). Karpov was winning a large number of super tournaments, more so than any other modern WCC. Karpov was dominant for a decade.
Fischer was out of shape and out of date. Plus Fischer was too fragile emotionally, and he would have quit the match or cracked in some other way – all of which is part of one’s overall chess ability.
Gene Milener
http://CastleLong.com/
Fischer fragile emotionally? Hahaha!! He was down 2 games to 0 vs Spassky in a World Championship Match! His mind wasnt even on chess until the third game of the match, as the trapped B of game 1 indicates and then the forfiet in game 2. Id like to see any other GM down 0-2 to a World Champion come back to win so convincingly. I think you have fragile emotions confused with the idiosynchrocies and eccentricities of a genuis.
TFK
Anonymous said…
Susan, what were some of the other unplayed matches that would have been interesting? Morphy versus Staunton comes to mind.
Saturday, April 29, 2006 12:46:22 PM
Everyone knows Morphy would have crushed Staunton. Staunton was not even playing chess actively at the time. he was scared stiff of Morphy.
Tom Chivers said…
Karpov would have won. Otherwise, Fischer would have played.
Saturday, April 29, 2006 4:52:02 PM
you have this backwards. if Karpov thought he had any chance of winning then the Russians would have accepted Fischer’s conditions for the match.
Ok time to pony up Susan with your comments on the what if match of Karpov – Fischer. You are very clever sitting back probably very amused as we slug it out verbally hahaha. Ok I know you were close to Bobby in Hungary and are now close with Anatoli but we need your answer
; ) TFK
“His mind wasnt even on chess until the third game of the match, as the trapped B of game 1 indicates”
This is pure BS. I’ve heard several grandmasters say they have no idea why he made such a simple blunder. Apparently they never heard Ruben Fine’s account of why Fischer grabbed the pawn. Bobby actually had calculated 29.. Bxh2 30 g3 and he thought that he could push his h pawn to h3 and be safe from the king. He did not realize until his pawn was on h4 that this would not work. He miscalculated. He did not blunder.
this one gives me a good laugh. first calls the move a blunder and later argues that it was not a blunder but a miscalculation. read for yourself.
Anonymous said…
“His mind wasnt even on chess until the third game of the match, as the trapped B of game 1 indicates”
This is pure BS. I’ve heard several grandmasters say they have [b]no idea why he made such a simple blunder.[/b] Apparently they never heard Ruben Fine’s account of why Fischer grabbed the pawn. Bobby actually had calculated 29.. Bxh2 30 g3 and he thought that he could push his h pawn to h3 and be safe from the king. He did not realize until his pawn was on h4 that this would not work. [b]He miscalculated. He did not blunder. [/b]
Saturday, April 29, 2006 9:14:17 PM
Susan you have to dump this anonymous posting. it is rediculous.
Now mr anonymous which is it. a miscalculated or a blunder. but in both cases it still proves what the original person tried to say. that bobby did not have his mind on the game well at the time he made this move in game 1.
Very hard to predict, but I suspect Karpov might have won. At his best, he was very difficult to play against. E.g., in his first match with Kasparov, when Kasparov was rated higher by the way, after 9 games . . . 4-0 for Karpov. Karpov won again in game 27 to go up 5-0. At the end, yes, Kasparov came back as Karpov wore down, although even at 5-3 (final score) Karpov could have won if the match had not been cancelled. And if Karpov hadn’t been so cautious earlier in the match, he might have lost a game or two but got the sixth win before his physical collapse.
If played under traditional rules, say a 24-game limit rather than “first to six wins,” Kasparov would have been obliterated in that match. In fact, he would have lost in 21 games, by a score of 12.5 to 8.5, same as Fischer beat Spassky.
Karpov was frail physically. But psychologically, both Fischer and Spassky were a bit fragile, while Karpov was incredibly tough.
It would have been a hell of a match. Either of them might have won it.
Karpov would have been much tougher for Fischer and Bobby knew it. At the top, his chronic fear of losing was of apocalyptical magnitude–paralyzing him, and finally unhinging him.
Had the match actually happened? Ironically, Fischer would have won.
If … If … If …. Decisions … Decisions … Decisions
What if … Susan had been encouraged, coached, and funded with the same vigor as the Soviet block aided Karpov? Would she have ultimatelly reached the top?
Bob how in the hell is Karpov tougher mentally than Kaspy or Fischer? You said yourself Karpov collapsed playing Garry LOL! Against Bobby the way he attacked and relentlessly turned up the heat with unexpected moves, novelties, and unexpected openings would have put a heavy burden on the frail Karpov. Plus Fischers unfathomable calculating ability and exact end game play would have ground the featherweight Karpov into the dust!
P.S. You cant be frail emotionally and spend 9 months in jail, and his crime of playing chess, but thats another story.
TFK
At that time, Fischer would have won. In his prime nobody was better than Fischer.
TFK: “Bob how in the hell is Karpov tougher mentally than Kaspy or Fischer? You said yourself Karpov collapsed playing Garry LOL”
Karpov’s collapse in 1985 was physical exhaustion after 48 games. Not mental or emotional. I stand by my statement that Karpov was very tough mentally, more so than Fischer or Spassky. (Yes, Kasparov is also tough mentally; I contrasted Karpov with Fischer and Spassky, not Kasparov.)
Yes, Fischer might have won, but it could have easily gone either way.
I seriously doubt if anyone who played 144 World Championship match games against Kasparov, cumulatively losing only by a narrow margin of 71-73 would be “dominated” by anyone in his prime. Karpov was a featherweight physically, not “chessically.” He also beat Spassky 7-4 just two years after Fischer beat Spassky 12.5-8.5; a lower winning percentage for Fischer.
I’m not sure how spending 9 months in jail demonstrates that Fischer was not fragile emotionally.
this is a misperception that many people have.
wgh said…
Karpov would have been much tougher for Fischer and Bobby knew it. At the top, his chronic fear of losing was of apocalyptical magnitude–paralyzing him, and finally unhinging him.
Had the match actually happened? Ironically, Fischer would have won.
Fischer had no fear of losing. all that is in the minds of other people but not in Fischer’s mind. if Fischer was so scared to lose then why did he not even show up for game 2 of his match with Spassky.
Honestly everyone has this habit of inferring all kinds of things about fischer. what they really mean is “if I was fischer then I would be filled with fear because I am a person who has fear of losing.”
2nd I would like to add that those people who have a tendency to say Fischer lived with fear are themselves living with fear. they think just because they live with fear that everyone else is living with fear. that is part of the human experience.
Most of you haven’t mentioned that, as of 1975, Bobby hadn’t played a game of competitive chess in three years. I therefore have to think he would have been extremely rusty, and Karpov would have won.
Now, had Fischer remained active between 1972-75, then I think Fischer probably would have won. But then, this assumes he would have continued to work and study.
Bob you point out that karpov and Weinstein (kasparov) were 71-73, Fischer claims and Spassky agrees these games were pre-arranged! Not too hard to be almost even that way. With the Russians anything is possible,(they’re siding with Iran with their nuclear program)! As far as Garry’s tough mental capacity he couldnt even play the dam game without pentium processors within 10 feet of him! You said and I quote “Im not sure how spending 9 months in jail demonstrates that Fischer was not fragile emotionally”. Well Bob try doing time in any jail 9 months let alone a foreign country where you dont know if youre ever going to get out! Because of trumped up charges by collusionary tactics with Japan and the U.S. government. You see the U.S. government illegally destroyed his passport without due notification. Under U.S. law if youre passport is in jeopardy of being suspended you have to be notified officially. Then you have the right to appeal this decision. For Fischer The only American Champion ever, they threw away the U.S. Constituion by not contacting him about his passport revocation and then destroying it! Then he was left to rot in a miserable Japanese cell not knowing what his fate would be! For a man 60 years of age thats kind of tough Bob.
P.S. get your shine box and spit shine garry’s shoes.
TFK
You think everyone who spends 9 months in jail is by definition tough mentally and emotionally? Well, I disagree.
Neither do I believe Fischer’s or Spassky’s assertions as proof that the Kasparov – Karpov results were pre-arranged.
Apparently neither of us is going to convince the other. So be it.
Yeah Bob lets have a truce, this stories getting old. Im starting to talk politics lol
TFK
Chess fans would have won.
-mang
I was really amused to read comments on this blog.
I think the final answer is that nobody knows.
Maybe that is why Fischer is such a fascinating figure in chess. Like Alekhine, they were never defeated..
In time, Kasparov will be forgotten due to his final defeat by Kramnik. His 2850 peak rating will easily be surpased by Topalov or Kramnik but Fischer will always remain an interesting figure…
Go to your local bookstore and checkout the books..who dominates chess books? Who is till interesting to write about?
Fischer will always be a mythical figure, because he was an American who beat the Soviet system. But we can only speculate as to what he would or could have done after that, since he didn’t play another competitive game for 20 years.
Kasparov will be forgotten? Gimme a break!!
If Martians attack Earth, who will win?