White to move. Is this a draw or loss for White? No computer please 🙂
8/8/8/5pk1/8/8/8/5K2 w – – 0 1
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Kg1=
See the end of this game for an example of this ending from actual play.
It’s a draw, because there would be little point posting the position otherwise.
I do use the computer to learn (as I am sure you do), and you need not discourage that.
I guess you don’t want people to post the solution too quickly, whether they have used a computer or not – so why not say that instead?!
>>>I do use the computer to learn (as I am sure you do), and you need not discourage that.
This is a simple draw for white based on opposition. Any one 1400 or better will know this. For those that didn’t know that the blog encourages them to figure it out but not with a computer. So I don’t think the blog was discouraging the use of a computer but with such a simple problem the blog was encouraging people to think.
>>>I guess you don’t want people to post the solution too quickly… so why not say that instead?
No they want people to think 🙂
“No computer please” isn’t directed against posting quickly the solution.
It’s a hint that you shouldn’t use a computer to find the solution as you learn more by finding itself.
Using a computer here is senseless, it is going to how the right moves immediately. You can play them but you won’t understand them.
By finding it yourself (it’s either knowing how to play this as most of us do or it is real calculating if you are a beginner and do not know the way) you learn how to master this in a real game.
Susan does not want do discourage you she wants you to learn something.
Come on, go and improve your endgame skills. Remember everything you know about endgames like these (KP vs K).
Just go and find out what black does after Kg2? or Kf2? (hint opposition) and if Ke1? or Ke2? are better or what.
Calculate it out and in the end you will know why white has to move Kg1.
Do the black answers Kf4, Kg4 and f4 and try to find out how to proceed with white.
This is, how Susan says, a must-know for pawn endgames and your computer won’t give you that.
So don’t blame Susan, try to follow her hint, put away the computer and really start learning something!
Best regards
Jochen (who taught chess to students for long time)
PS: ano 5:14 it’s not quite the same but it shows perfectly that Kg1Kf1 are waiting moves as white mustn’t go forward
Here is a nice page on opposition.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opposition_(chess)
Does any one know a better page. I would like to know how to calculate opposition in positions where you have to take both distant opposition and diagonal opposition into consideration. Like white K at b2 and black K at f7.
Wiki also has a nice page on triangulation.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triangulation_%28chess%29
The above pages shows an interesting example of where triangulation is used to get the opposition.
8/1p1k4/1P6/2PK4/8/8/8/8 w
More good stuff on K&P vs K.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King_and_pawn_versus_king_endgame
Some interesting stuff on corresponding squares.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corresponding_squares
ano 5:14 it’s not quite the same
Jochen –
Turn the board around and reverse the colors of all the men.
“Turn the board around and reverse the colors of all the men.”
No there is one important difference.
In Susan’s position Kg1 takes the distance opposition but that is not necesary.
The opposition is AFTER white’s move.
In Fischer’s game Kb8 white ha to give up the distance opposition, the opposition is BEFORE white’s move.
Do you see the difference?
What is important here, that in THIS case it is not the fact of the distant opposition that draws because even in the worse position (Fischer’s poition seems worse as white has the distant opposition) the weaker side can draw (because of the pawn Gligoric can’t keep this distant opposition).
It’s in fact a small difference (the king just moves one square) but it can make a big difference in a game.
Best regards
Jochen
“In Fischer’s game Kb8 white ha to give up the distance opposition, the opposition is BEFORE white’s move.”
Let’s translate this nonsense:
I meant in Fischer’s game the stronger side has the distant opposition, in Susan’s the weaker side.
Kb8 gives up the oppoition, the opposition is before BLACK’s move.
Sorry. 😉
Jochen –
Sorry to be so thick about this, but I don’t see any difference whatever between the two positions.
Ugh.
Never mind.
How bizarre.
I’m a beginner and I happened to be studying this very ending (well, a similar one)in “Pandolfini’s Endgame Course” when I logged on to this blog to check out the chess news.
Kg1 gets the distant oppostion
and draws.
“Ugh.
Never mind.”
Doesn’t matter…. but the next poster again shows very good the difference and I have really to thank you for the link now!
I just opened my eyes as I thought of the distant opposition, too, for a long time.
So big thanks!
“Kg1 gets the distant opposition
and draws.”
No, no, no!
This distant opposition means nothing here. See my posts above or put the king to g1 in the diagramme, with white to move (then you get the Fischer’s game; white does lose the opposition but not the game).
You’ll then see what the opposition means here….
I start liking this simple end game…. and someone wanted to use a computer here…. pah. 😉
Best regards
Jochen (little drunk so sorry for mitakes)
Let’s see if I’ve learned anything from all the mistakes I’ve posted in this thread.
***
Position #1 (Susan’s position):
8/8/8/5pk1/8/8/8/5K2 w – – 0 1
White’s only move to draw is 1.Kg1.
***
Position #2 (the position in the Gligoric-Fischer game cited above, rotated 180° and colors reversed — not the same as #1):
8/8/8/5kp1/8/8/8/5K2 w – – 0 1
White’s only move to draw is 1.Kg1.
***
Position #3 (same as #1 except with White’s king on g1):
8/8/8/5pk1/8/8/8/6K1 w – – 0 1
White’s only move to draw is 1.Kf1.
***
Position #4 (same as #2 except with White’s king on g1):
8/8/8/5kp1/8/8/8/6K1 w – – 0 1
White’s only move to draw is 1.Kf1.