Position after 9….Nd5
GM V. Kramnik – Deep Fritz (C) [E03]
Kramnik – Deep Fritz Bonn, Germany, 11.29.2006
1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 e6 3.g3 d5 4.Bg2 dxc4 5.Qa4+ Nbd7 6.Qxc4 a6 7.Qc2 c5 8.Nf3 b6 9.Ne5 Nd5 10.Nc3 Bb7 11.Nxd5 Bxd5 12.Bxd5 exd5 (This is so far a good start for Kramnik in this game. This is a position where he can play for 2 results without much risks. Kramnik is amazing with his opening choices as he often gets good positions to squeeze his opponents.)
13.0-0 Nxe5 14.dxe5 Qc8 15.Rd1 Qe6 (White is a little better here for several reasons: 1) White is more developed and already castled 2) White’s pieces are more coordinated 3) Black may potentially have a problem defending the Queenside pawn structure 4) Black’s Bishop has little mobility. Again, this is the perfect type of position that Kramnik wants to have against Deep Fritz.)
16.Qd3 (Now I expect Fritz to play 16…Be7. If 17.Qxd5 then 17…Rd8 18.Qb3 Rxd1+ 19.Qxd1 +=)
16…Be7 (Just as expected)
17.Qxd5 Rd8 18.Qb3 Rxd1+ 19.Qxd1 0-0 20.Qb3 c4 21.Qc3 f6 22.b3 Rc8 (Even though Black is down a pawn, Fritz has some compensation for it.)
23.Bb2 b5 24.Qe3 fxe5 25.bxc4 Rxc4 26.Bxe5 (It would be interesting to see how Fritz will defend this position. White is of course better because White is a pawn up. However, the Black Rook is much more active and therefore Black has adequate compensation for the pawn.)
26…h6 27.Rd1 Rc2 (Black’s active Rook is helping Fritz out a great deal. This is an important lesson for endgame play. Keep your pieces as active as possible!)
28.Qb3 Qxb3 29.axb3 Rxe2 30.Bd6 (This is heading for a draw but I like Black a little better due to the smaller majority on the Queenside.)
30…Bf6 31.Bc5 (I continue to like Black better. Kramnik has to work to draw this game.)
31…a5 32.Bd4 Be7 (I am very impressed with the computer’s ability to understand not to trade the Bishop. Once the Bishops are off the board, the game would be a much easier draw for Kramnik.)
33.Bc3 (I am excited to see the computer taking Kramnik head on in an endgame. The computer has done well so far.)
33…a4 34.bxa4 bxa4 35.Rd7 Bf8 36.Rd8 (This is one of those very difficult endgames to win as Black but it is also very frustrating to defend as White.)
36…Kf7 37.Ra8 (If 37…a3 38.Rxf8+ Kxf8 39.Bb4+ then 40.Bxa3 and White should be able to hold for a draw.)
37…a3 (A computer moment! Fritz does not understand that this will lead to an immediate draw.)
38.Rxf8+! (A human moment! Kramnik clearly understands that he has secured a draw with this sacrifice.)
38… Kxf8 39.Bb4+ (This is one of those positions where Fritz does not understand very well. Kramnik should have no problem holding this position to a draw now. If Fritz wanted to win, it cannot allow this sacrifice. Just about anything else would have been better.)
39…Kf7 40.Bxa3 (This game is done. This is basically a drawn endgame. Fritz made an endgame mistake of counting materials instead of understanding the position. The rest of the game is very uninteresting as Fritz will only keep on making moves without understanding that the position has little play.)
40…Ra2 41.Bc5 g6 42.h4 Kf6 43.Be3 h5 44.Kg2 1/2
Nice start for Kramnik, shaking off the debacle from Monday.
That had to be a tough one to forget.
Susan, you are always on the ball and up-to-date with your commentary. From all of us who rely on you for viewing these games, thank you.
Susan my name is Alberto from Argentina, we have a Siteblog, and retransmitting Kramnik Deep Fritz with commentarys on live, now you can enter, 3 International Master commenting. http://solo-ajedrez.blogspot.com/2006/11/kramnik-vs-deep-fritz-en-vivo.html
thxs and visit us =)
Susan,
Thanks for letting us follow this game with your analysis real-time on your blog. I am surprised that there has been so little promotion for this effort with Chessbase not even offering real-time coverage from its website. I suspect things would be much different if you were involved.
One thing that would make your blog even better would be the ability to link to a tool allowing replay of the position when following games real-time on your blog.
Regards,
Alan
My Rybka thinks that 26 …Bc5 27. Qg5 Bf8 is better than 26 … h6.
Thanks for the up-to-date
commentary!
—from Taiwan
One can see the possibilities for calculation for fritz here. I worry about Kramnik tiring rapidly. Noteably, there has not been an early
Queen trade.
Here is a live game, with audio comment:
http://www.spiegel.de/static/chessbase/index-en.html
I think that 28. a3 or even 28. a4 would have been better than 28. Qb3, but I don’t have a computer for evaluation.
i dont think white is better at all. one line is 27. Rd1 Ra4 28. Qb3 Qxb3 29. ab3 Re4 30. f4 Rxe2 31.Ra1 Bc5+ 32. Kh1 Re3 33. Rxa6 Rxb3 and black is slightly better.
After 27 …Rc2 28. a3 the a pawn is lost but Black’s pawn structure doesn’t look well. A small White advantage in this case – about 20 centipawns.
i think better than Rc2 was Ra4
Do you hear something on the live coverage on spiegel web site ?
now white might just play a4 spike and the doubled rook pawns might not cause white any serious problems.
Do you hear something on the live coverage on spiegel web site ?
No, the guy said he will be back in 10 mintues. It’s been 15 since than.
Ok now after 28…Qxb3 29. axb3 Rxe2 30. f4 we get the same position i looked at in my previous note with 27…Ra4. i think black is slightly better. the passed b-pawn is causing white problems in the end. in queenless endgame the queenside majority is a threat.
Do you hear something on the live coverage on spiegel web site ?
And he is back now !!!
Okay, now, i hear him ! 🙂
ok well 28…Qxb3 29. axb3 Rxe2 30. f4 Bc5+ 31. Kh1 Re3 32. Rd7! should keep good drawing chances. 32…Rxb3 33. Rxg7+ Kf8 34. Rh7 a5 35. Rxh6 with counterplay
the black rook there being in front of the pawns instead of behind them is a problem
Susan correction 29…Rxe2 not Rxe3… just trying to help
ok Bd6 seems like an inaccuracy to me. now after 30…Bf6 the black kingside is safer allowing the king to join in …. 31. b4 (what else) 31…Rb2! 32. Rd3 necessary to stop Bc3 33. Kf7 (now here comes the king to e6 and once the king is on e6 i think Bc3 is a threat again. All in all black has more active king.
i think kramnik is missing that after 32…Be7 33. Ra1 (hoping for 33..Bb4 34.Rc1-c7 with counterplay) instead black has strong 33…Re4! 34. B moves a4 and the pawns continue to make their way.
this is instructive ending
DRAW ! Ta8, T*f8+, Fb4+, F*a3 =
i think u mean vice versa susan 🙂 frustrating to defend as white 🙂
wow rd8 looks like an error i much rather would have had my rook on a7 attacking the pawn and cutting the black king off . now black king is in the game.
very good …..Rxf8 coming…..and yes it seems white has fortress.
Re7 would be funny right now…
Kram play my variation see 12:27:57 !
Yeah !
Draw….
I would think the endgame table bases would kick in right around now (at least for Fritz!) Anyone have them to check this is a dead draw now? [although I suppose there may still be chances]
(after 43. Be3)
After h5? it is deader than dead. 😉
1/2:1/2
Official
Kramnik fighting for a draw with white? What did Tal say?
Playing for a draw with white is a crime against chess!
Well, 2:1 to Fritz.
I think Fritz would be happy against the world champion, if it wasn’t a machine.
As for Kramnik, it is a long way to go to win this match, he would have to win two out of the next three games. Observing the first three, I believe it is a long shot. The world of technology came a long way since the famous David Levy bet (which he won).
Gabor
Frank said…
ALL the unprecedented advantages Kramnik was given – yet he still draws with white and blunders into mate in 1?
Pathetic.
+++++
You don’t know much about chess, life, and such – right?
>>Frank said…
ALL the unprecedented advantages Kramnik was given – yet he still draws with white and blunders into mate in 1?
Pathetic.
>>
And despite it all, Topalov still cheated. Dang, how can we erase that???
And despite it all, Topalov still cheated. Dang, how can we erase that???
Even Kramnik said no such thing, then again he wasn’t an internet nutter either. Go figure.
One anon wrote:
“Even if we are outperformed by machines, we can still measure ourselves, compared to other human players, by using the Machine as a benchmark of sorts.”
I give a few short years and there will be no more men vs. machine in chess. It will become perfectly clear that the machine can defeat humans in chess. No differently than a race car can defeat an olympic runner, at any distance. Then people will return playing chess against each other, as it should be and the computers will become a teaching, learning, practicing tool in chess.
None of these would be happening if at one point human chess players weren’t so cocky claiming that computers will never be able to beat the best human chess players. They were, and they were wrong, end of story.
Gabor
Hydra with 216 million positions per second and very good software is the real beast.
Kramnik should be happy to play Fritz 10 with “only” ~10 million positions per second
power.
It’s baby compared with Fritz.
Oh sorry,I meant Fritz is baby compared with Hydra
in my opinion – especially against a human opponent – the continuation 28.Qd4!? (instead of Qb3) would be an easy draw with big winning chances. my short analysis (superficially cross checked with Fritz7) is given below in PGN. did i miss something? certainly …
[Event “Man vs Machine”]
[Site “Bonn, Germany”]
[Date “2006.11.29”]
[Round “3”]
[White “?”]
[Black “?”]
[Result “draw”]
[Annotator “Vohaul”]
[SetUp “1”]
[FEN “6k1/4b1p1/p3q2p/1p2B3/8/4Q1P1/P1r1PP1P/3R2K1 w – – 0 1”] [PlyCount “19”] [EventDate “2006.11.25”] [SourceDate “2006.11.29”]
1. Qd4 Bf8 (1… Rxa2 2. Bxg7 Qc4 (2… Rxe2 3. Bxh6 Bf8 (3… Qxh6 4. Qg4+) 4. Bxf8 Re1+ 5. Kg2 Qe4+ 6. Qxe4 Rxe4 7. Bd6 $18) 3. Qxc4+ (3. e4 $6 Qxd4 4. Bxd4 a5 5. e5 a4 6. f4 b4 7. f5 b3 8. e6 Re2 9. Kf1 Rxh2 10. f6 Bb4 11. Bg1 Rc2 12.
Rd8+ Kh7) 3… bxc4 4. Bxh6) (1… Rxe2 2. Bxg7 Rxa2 3. Bxh6 Bf6 4. Qd3
Rd8+ $11) 2.
Qe3 (2. Qf4 Rxe2 3. Rd8 Qe7 4. Rb8 g5) (2. Bd6 Bxd6 (2… Qxe2 3. Bxf8 Kxf8 4.
Qf4+) 3. Qxd6 Qxe2 4. Qd5+ Kh8 (4… Kh7 5. Qf5+ Kg8 6. Rd8+) 5. Kh1 Rc8
Qf4+(5…
Qxf2 6. Qa8+ Kh7 7. Qe4+ Kg8 8. Rd8+ Kf7 9. Qe8+ Kf6 10. Rd6+ Kf5 11. Qg6+ Ke5 12. Qe6#) 6. Kg1) (2. e4 Rxa2 3. f4) 2… Qxa2 3. Bxg7 Bxg7 4. Qe8+ Kh7 5. Qe4+ Kg8 6. Rd8+ Kf7 7. Qe8+ Kf6 8. Rd6+ Kf5 9. Qg6+ Ke5 10. f4# *
Ivan, any idea why Hydra is absent in man vs machine challenges for a while?
>>Even Kramnik said no such thing, then again he wasn’t an internet nutter either. Go figure.
>>
Kramnik may not have, but did you bother to read the ACP release, you internet nutter, you?
http://www.chess-players.org/eng/news/viewarticle.html?id=565
“Well, there are still some mind games where humans are superior to computers: one such example is Go.”
Superior to computers, or merely superior to any software that people have so far bothered to write?
“Well, there are still some mind games where humans are superior to computers: one such example is Go.”
Another example is Arimaa:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arimaa
This was posted on the Price for Fame blog by this bloger from germany VOLHAUL so watch your back
the following posings we posted as anoymous by a german called VOHAUL
1. Vohaul said…
an accusation is not a conviction – however, some discussions here around (e.g. about toilets…) have clearly proven, that there are a lot of people who make no differences… (as a matter of course, most of these wannabe judges refer to their own freedom of expression…)
Sunday, November 26, 2006 10:53:44 AM
2.Anonymous said(VOHAUL)
It’s all about Australian RACISM.
They are old white racists and bully amd exclude all the Asian faces from what is called the mainstream Australian way of life, which Howard proposes.
This little incident can be interpreted as yet another case of a racial scapegoat in a country
, where things seem to change slowlier than rotten water.
(By the way I am not Australian myself. But look at how many
Australian convict bumpkins want some publicity here themselves. It’s all the outback thing, mate LMAO.
Sunday, November 26, 2006 8:19:35 PM
3.Anonymous said.(VOHAUL)
>BoB hu
Here is a poem for you by a Chinese-Australian, have a good read as well as some flashbacks from old days, “mate” (and I know what it means. An abbreviation of “Checkmate”, right? They say that when they happen to mate a king down there.) I am sure Australia is now a racism-free multicultural country with no more official racist policy stipulated in their constitutiuon LOL.Oh poor Arianne. She should migrate to America or France with much more freedom and common sense to be treated more fairly and humanely!
A Racist Chinese Father (published in 1995 by a Chinese-Australian author! Yeah, I found this, albeit with some facility!)
the other day my son came back from school asking me what does it mean “you fing indian.” I told him in chinese what it meant or could mean and asked why. he told me someone in his class said that to him. i dont’t remember if I told him to talk to his teacher about it or to answer back, but later on it turned out that he’d mispronounced it; the correct form should be “you fing idiot”.
again the other day he came back with the story that someone at school pushed him hard from behind so he fell to the ground and hurt himself badly. i spent half the night teaching him kongfu, how to defend himself and if necessary how to hit back. HIT HARD ON THE NOSE OR THE MOUTH! my blood was running wild and fast while i was shouting this but his mother became fearful, real fearful, saying stop such nonesense! if your son really hurt others he’d be, and you’d be punished. but was he punished he who hurt my son so badly? i yelled.
story after story came back each day ever since from my son:that this boyt pinched him hard on the ear, and the girl pulled down his pants for him, and this big fellow came directly to him and slapped across his face, so much so that it soundd all like fiction, that my wife began blaming him for all the trouble he’d caused saying why they all hit you? hurt you? call your names? there must have been something wrong with you, with your behaviour, with your identity, with your alien self and i could only mutter to myself and to him, you bastard, useless bastrad. Why didn’t you answer back? why didn’t you hit back? why didn’t you eye an eye, tooth a tooth? Why didn’t you KILL? stop such nonsense,my wife was screaming, screeching. I was afraid, terribly afraid, my son was crying softly that they were too big for him, like hairy apes.
people told me that i could go report to his teacher, that such things were common enough in australia, and for children even teachers believe that it’s part of growing up in a society.
but i was so angry with my boy who never seemed to take it to heart like me. he’d come back and tell me, dad the big brother next door was very nice to me that day for he patted me on the shoulder and said we are friends. by the way the big brother next door was the bloke who once burnt my son’s chest with a burning cigarette butt and stuck a chewed gum between his shirt and naked back, but my boy would go on saying nice things about these PEOPLE
I know, I would never do that being older and more chinese. if someone suddenly stopped greeting me i’d do the same to him, if someone called me names i’d call him names, hit me i’d hit him, kill me i’d kill him. if they wouldn’t telephone me I wouldn’t telephone them, if they wouldn’t speak to me i wouldn’t speak to them. if they didn’t come to me, I wouldn’t go to them, if they wrote to spite me I would write to spite them, if possible in chinese you know not many of them kow how to speak chinese although they pretend they are china experts. they are so stupid you know drinking so much that they produce a lot of idiots although they like calling others bloody idiots because they are ashamed of their own. oh come on boy, you don’t understand this, you are such a kid.
today my son again asked me as if i knew everything, dad what does you fing dickhead mean and why they sing “ching chong chinaman” to me? i asked who said that? who sang that? did they do that to you? YES what does it mean? ignore it, it’s not important. it’s bad. did you report to your teacher?no, why not? don’t tell me if you don’t do that…simply answer back you fing dickhead, you fing aussie bastard you fing-ing…fufukingking.
fortunately his mother was not around this time.
(my comment, what a sad society. A true authentic outback thing, mate.)
Monday, November 27, 2006 8:18:33 A
4.Anonymous said.(vohaul)
haha
the convict’s starting to show his prison color now.
Look at the bushman’s uncivillized
phrasing. REally primitive, mate!
(huh? Did I checkmate you? Oh that was Friz!)
Arianne, forget the 21 st century racist country/outback/colony and come to the States, where you will enjoy unprecedented amount of freedom and constant fair treatment from people with no convict hang-up!!
Monday, November 27, 2006 11:27:04 AM
5.Anonymous said..(VOHAUL)
Anonymous said…
Admit that you are a racist like most of Australians and you just have to deny that because the Australian racism as an undeniable historical and contemporary social fact would only keep you as a world’s embarassing laughing stock.
we partners together now anonymous
haha
starting to show all over huh?did i Oh we checkmate you (Oh that was not Fritz) REally primitive,mate! LMAO
Australian convict bumpkins want some publicity here from that jewde polgar themselves. It’s all the outback thing, mate LMAO. hoddy run away haha
Wednesday, November 29, 2006 2:49:17
All VOHAUL handy work.
Other Germans need not feel offended every ton of apples has a rotten one in this case it’s VAHAUL
Wednesday, November 29, 2006 3:22:46
Anon said Have all the top players play Fritz 10 at the same time as Kramnik — all players would play Fritz 10 for a set number of games, and whoever had the best result would be considered the Man-vs-Machine World Champion.
This would be the “Man vs. Fritz” world champion. I’d prefer to have them play each of 10 different programs.
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
dear anonym – your behavior is *tusk *tusk, a little strange, isn’t it?
i do not know you, you do not know me – but – apparently you have a lot of very sad stories to tell. however, to be honest, i have not the faintest idea what made me the “rotten apple” you nominated me to be. and what the hell came over you to write a sentence like
“Australian convict bumpkins want some publicity here from that jewde polgar themselves. It’s all the outback thing, mate LMAO.”
you throw out the child with the bathwater and blame yourself as a complete moron (or even worse)!
what i can tell you is, that i have NEVER blogged or posted as an “anonymous” since i’m a registered blogger here (and before i was registered, i signed 99% of my postings with my worldwide known netname – Vohaul – the remaining 1% harken back to human error levels)
so calm down please – and come back to chess! remember, it is a chess blog here.
sincerly yours, Vohaul
Kramnik, the one blunder aside, has played the 3 games at least even. If he can hold over the next 3games, I going to guess that humans are (at the top) adapting to greater computer strength. The race car sprinter analogy is not a total sound premises.
>Even Kramnik said no such thing, then again he wasn’t an internet nutter either. Go figure.
>
Let’s get this straight, fans. A Topalov supporter admits, without being asked to, that accusing someone without evidence makes one a nutter! He admits it freely.
The more they try to defend this guy, the more they take a chainsaw to him.
Wie Sie dies uns antun können schande auf Ihnen
thats you alright vohaol checked some of your other blogs!!”LMAO” hehe bit over the top
NO MATE IN 1 TODAY ?
I attended the match today and made some nice photos I’d like to share with you:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/schwarti/sets/72157594397903848/
It was an interesting experience. Have fun!
Andreas
Someone said they liked Ra7 better. However, I picked this up on another web site.
There was cute trick line for DF-10 if instead 36. Ra7 (Vlad played the best 36. Rd8) then on 36… a3 37. Bxg7?! – For now if 37… Bxg7 then 38. Rxa3 Bd4 39. Rf3. However, DF-10 has instead the killer 37… Re7!! Yikes!
after 37….Re7 if
38. Rxa3 Re1+
39. Kg2 Bxa3
and DF looks winning.
>>And despite it all, Topalov still cheated. Dang, how can we erase that???
Haha, this is the Anon who supports Kramnik in all blogs with his mad ravings and tortuous progress around and bypassing the truth. Topalov cheated? Darn, why did you press the Enter key before thinking. Lacking evidence, do you?
>>The more they try to defend this guy, the more they take a chainsaw to him.
The more he tries to defend Kramnik, the more he takes a chainsaw to him.
Evidence just gets too heavy.
ashik wrote:
>
Ivan, any idea why Hydra is absent in man vs machine challenges for a while?
>
No.But its’ owner(s) in UAE think it is unbeatable (by human or another machine in classical time control game) .
I don’t think so.
Soon,new generations of improved computer sofwares will be created,boosting computer evaluating function.
I guess that even Fritz 10 at 10 millions per second has some chance to outplay the monster.
As concerns ,humans I think that only mighty Kasparov would have chance to put resistance to the silicon multiprocessor engine like Hydra.
Adams is not a real measure of Hydra’s strenght.
Matter of fact,he is disgrace for human race with his causal approach to that match.It almost appeard like :”let me collect money and why would I care about rest of it”.
BTW,I don’t know how he manages to have rating 2700-2740 over the years.