This is a very unfortunate situation and FIDE President Kirsan Ilyumzhinov flew back to Elista to try to resolve this matter.
Will he overturn the forfeit loss? Even if he wants to, is there any provision in the FIDE rule book that would permit this? This would be unprecedented if there is a reversal of game 5.
There have been many problems with this match. Here are some very interesting points:
– The match is held in Russia. Has this rule been changed? It used to be that the venue has to be in a neutral location. Why did Topalov agree to play in Russia?
– Kramnik agreed to this provision and signed the contract:
* 3. 17. 1 The written decision of the Appeals Committee arising from any dispute in respect of these regulations shall be final.
* 3. 23. 1 At any time in the course of the application of these regulations, any grounds that are not covered or any unforeseen event shall be referred to the Presidential Board or the President of FIDE, for final decision.
He claims that the Appeals Committee is biased toward Topalov and they are friends with Topalov. Didn’t he know this before? Therefore, why would he sign a contract with this provision?
– Kramnik’s manager demanded the following:
Requested Apology – Last but not least Mr. Kramnik believes that Mr. Danailov should apologize to Mr. Kramnik in writing.
Does he honestly believe that this will happen?
– Topalov’s manager made this statement:
If the match were to continue, the World Champion would refrain from shaking hands with Mr. Kramnik before the games and would not take part in joint press conferences with him. Veselin Topalov will make statements for the media separately.
What is this about?
With this kind of rhetoric by both sides, what will happen in the next 6 hours?
I sincerely hope they will put their ego aside and continue the match. I will be on LIVE at 7 AM to bring you the commentary regardless if the game will be played or not.
Susan, thanks for all of your commentary, as well as your diligence covering the on and off the board events.
With that kind of rhetoric, the game will not be played. I do not believe the game will be played in 6 hours. It will either be postponed for another round of juvenile bantering by each “team” in hopes of reaching some sort of begrudged agreement, or the match will not continue.
An article on chessbase talked about the psychological game being played by both sides from which it is easy to infer that they believe these kinds of interactions are a normal part of world championships. Well…perhaps that is the way it is, but that is not the way it should be.
Topalov should be ashamed to assume Kramnik is cheating with such silly, circumstantial evidence, to be so unsportsmanlike as to refuse to shake hands at the match, and to accept a forfeit while he is officially behind in the tournament.
Kramnik should have first been privately consulted about his multiple trips to the toilet and a request made that he modify his behavior (or that a trusted attendant was placed in the toilet). It is difficult to blame Kramnik for being upset at the way things were handled, but he and his team should really listen to Seirawan’s proposal and modify their requests so that the match may continue.
In my opinion, both players are receiving horrible advice from their managers on how to handle this situation. This all goes to show that intelligence and wisdom do not necessarily go hand in hand.
Topolov accused Kramnik of cheating and FIDE publicly admonished Kramnik by locking the doors thus deepening the suspicion. If I were Kramnik I would not continue until Topolov and FIDE both apologize.
Susan, you are providing an excellent service by putting your commentary on the blog. I’ve set my alarm to 4:00am PST and hope there will be a game to watch when I awake! I rather doubt it… but I can hope. 🙂
This is easily the dumbest thing I have ever heard of. It has been 13 years since we had an undisputed champion, and now the whole thing is being thrown away because of a dispute over the bathrooms? This is such a stupid way to end a championship match, and I don’t see any way out of it:
-Kramnik will not accept the forfeit loss, and will insist on replaying game 5.
-Topalov will not accept a replay of game 5.
-Kramnik will sit out (forfeit) game 6 also.
-The FIDE will declare Topalov the winner by forfeit, while Kramnik will continue to claim the classical title.
-And we have just set the sport of chess back by another 10 years. Good job everyone.
Susan, I pay little attention to the fates and fortunes of top-level chess players, but every time I take a look, the upper echelon seems to be populated solely with nutcases and jerks. Yet you seem so friendly and level-headed, it gives me confidence that there is some sanity in chessworld among the rampant egoistic infantilism. Thank-you for your commentary and updates.
I don’t like the chances of further play…too many problems here…
I have enough of this, let this two gentlemen do what they want. I DO NOT CARE. Let this circus go as it is. All of this may be prove what R.Fischer thinks now about chess (corrupted to the core).
I am now waiting for Lahno versus Indian Phenom Negi to watch it with pleasure. Girls are not clowns as Kram-Topa.
Susan, you know in your heart that K. is not a cheater. All this mess has started because Danailov was afraid that T. loose the match because of the score. So the situation is not symetric, it is not the truth to say that “both sides” are not fair. K. team is right to not accept T. team conditions : they dont want make the same error that Spassky in 72 (accept all conditions from Fischer).
(sorry for my bad english).
I have lost all respect for Topalov after this. I was thinking he is a real fighter and will come back into the match. But this episode only shows his selfishness and insecurity. These people are making a mockery of chess lovers throughout the world.
Dear Susan,
thank you for the nice coverage about the match as well as the conflict. I appreciate that your objection seems to be that this great match finishes and the best at the board will win.
However I find that in writing about the conflict, you are not neutral. For example: you quote the contract signed by the players, only to make Mr. Kramnik look bad. However, you do not quote the parts of the contract that clearly show how right his behaviour was in the light of the signed contract.
It is true, the appeals commitee has the “final word”, but most clearly only on those issues they are authorized to rule on. The toilet issue is no such issue, as clauses 3.17.1. and 3.18.3 of the contract clearly shows.
Let’s hope the issue will be settled soon and that both players will return to the board for game 5.
I find Susan’s writings otherwise of high standard (usually) but on this matter she has been below part. And her comments haven’t been helpful at all.
You shouldn’t blame both of them. There is a clear culprit here, and it’s Danailov (and Topalov).
Dear Susan
First my compliments for your efforts. You really have many articles on this affair, an embarrassment of riches (and a richness of embarassments :-/)!
This goes to show how much you care for the WC(C) match and how much you’d like it to continue (as we all do).
One thing I was wondering (posted this on chessgames, too):
These rest room monitors are usually observed by people from the organisation, or the arbiters, I guess.
Why did they not think anything suspicious about Kramnik’s behaviour? Why was action taken only after the subjective and exaggerated interpretation by Danailov? The appeals committee basically said that the people watching the monitors are incompetent.
Interesting message in the Russian forum:
ARRY: Ребята, я работаю в РУВД г.Элисты и сейчас случайно видел пленку видеозаписи 4-й партии. Да, Крамник очень много раз заходил в туалет, но он заходил быстрым шагом, причём дверь в туалет во время всей партии была открыта, и через 3-4 сек. таким же шагом выходил обратно. Впечатление такое, что он входил, доходил до стенки, разворачивался и выходил,причём по его отрешённости было видно,что во время этой ходьбы мыслительный процесс не прекращался. Разглашая это, я совершаю служебное преступление, но это должны знать все.
http://www.chesspro.ru/guestnew/looknullmessage/?themeid=16&id=17
So this is what it takes to get the World Chess Championship ont o BBC News web-site.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/5393944.stm
Congratulations to all for managing to turn it into a subject for derision among the 99% of the world who do not play.
It’s all about the money. Topalov (or Danailov) is trying to create a situation where the proposed match with Azad Rahimov can go ahead as a defence of the World Championship. Of course if he loses to Kramnik the match will not take place and that will cost him $1m.
Everyone thought that Topalov would steamroller Kramnik, who has had poor results and health issues, but he has come to strength just at the right time and now everyone panics because nobody in FIDE actually wants Kramnik as Champion.
From the official site: http://www.worldchess2006.com
“Game is postponed
FIDE President Kirsan Ilyumzhinov accepted the proposal of the Chief Arbiter of the World Chess Championship Match Topalov-Kramnik Mr. Geurt Gijssen to postpone the Game of today. In his Letter to the players, the FIDE President calls the players to discuss the actual situation and solve the problems.”
Susan,
All our hope now lie with Kirsan’s ability to bring the two parties together.
I am disgusted now with both players.
– Topalov due to the hand shaking issue
– Kramnik because of his boycott of last game and his demands.
I disagree with fans of either player.
If any of these players had class they would have agreed to a compromise.
Believe me this psychological advantage isn’t a big deal.
One of these players could have done a class act for the sake of the fans and the good will would last a life time.
Topalov should be ashamed of himself. His manager did not protest with the match organizer, he mounted a smear campaign against Kramnik and used the media to make the campaign extremely effective. Kramnik did not run to give interviews, and as a result he is portrayed as a toilet-fixated weirdo in the media. Whatever his faults, he did not deserve this.
Susan, you have always disliked Kramnik and preferred Topalov. But in this case, how can you accept such low tactics? How would you react if it was Judith Polgar and not Kramnik, whose bathroom tapes were shown to Danailov? You’d still be trying to talk about thinking of chess? This is hypocrisy. If not Judith, anybody but Kramnik? Would you still talk about chess and pretend that Topalov is a decent guy?
WHO EVER WINS THIS MATCH EITHER BY FORFEIT OR BY WINNING IT. IM GONNA ACCEPT HIM AS WORLD CHAMPION ……AT LEAST WE HAVE SOMETHING TO LOOK FORWARD TOO IN THE FUTURE.
this danailov must be closed in the toilets till the end of the game
Ah well, gens una summus 😉
Anyway,
wwww.myopathe.ch
Vote for this site :
I hate to say this, but it seems to me that Susan have chosen her side right from the beginning.
Susan,
If the same thing happened to yourself of someone that you liked, you wouldnt be trying to talk about “thinking of chess”, would you?
BTW, i do like your blog, i really do. Keep up the good work.
Susan has stayed neutral, and stated that she thinks neither player was cheating, and that she wishes the best one to win. So I don’t see why all you complaining aganist biases.
The reason that Susan comments *seem* to be in favor of Topalov’s position and against Kramnik’s position, IMHO, is because a) in the current state of the crisis, Kramnik has done more harm than Topalov and all his paranoia, and because b) the rules benefit Topalov’s claim.
1) Topalov sat to play. Kramnik didn’t.
2) The rules contemplate out of the ordinary behavior. Going 50 times to the bathroom, no matter what Kramnik fans try to make us believe, is NOT normal and IS suspicious (not that he is cheating, but come one!)
3) The Committee did not favor Topalov in his decision. Only one out of three demands of Topalov was granted. Topalov’s team didn’t like it but they moved on. Kramnik went ballistic and caused the collapse of game 5.
4) The precedents and the rules clearly state that game 5 is history now, and the point belongs to Topalov.
5) Admittedly, the most ridiculous part of all this thing is:
a) the image of Kramnik waiting for the bathroom to be opened
b) Topalov’s insentitive and anti-sportive and anti-gentlemanly refusal of shaking hands with Kramnik or sharing media conferences with him. That was just stupid and I would fire Danailov for that only.
So, if you make some math, reason and the rules seem to favor Topalov in this case, even if he and his team made many mistakes and behaved poorly.
roper franc is simply wrong in his one-sided analysis and is obviously pro Topalov. Topalov knows Kramnik is not trying to cheat. Accusing him of such is low and is simply a psychological ploy. The toilet incident should never have made it to the media. It should have been resolved in private. Kramnik had every reason to be thoroughly upset with the situation. FIDE will promote their world champion candidate, Topalov, in this battle. It was a fair competition in which Kramnik was winning fairly. Topalov and his team pitched a fit and received a free point out of it (how shameful!). This match is over. There will continue to be two world champions until some duo has the maturity to play a chess tournament without all the idiotic psychological games.
… and please stop this ludicrous repetition about FIFTY visits in the bathroom, which is PROVEN to be wrong … ridiculous – they had a small cutout of the video tape (the one given between move 15 and 16 of game three) and EXTRAPOLATED to 50…
(i’m sure Mr. Kramnik is still a smoker – and does not want to notify publicly this fact – especially after a press release by his manager from may this year, boasting about the fact that Mr. Kramnik gave up smoking, as he did in 2000 blah, blah… but he never stopped it ..)
there is NOTHING suspicious, unless the loss of 1,000,000$ by Mr.Topalov , if he could not defend his “FIDE – WC – title” against Radjabow, losing the match against Mr.Kramnik!
sincerly, Vohaul
Roper Franc,
Dont want to shake Kramniks hand after (infer that) Kramnik might be cheating is a thing that cant be accepted.
Would u (as a super GM and a Clasical World Champ) play whith the man that insult you without waiting for FIDE to clear things up and reinstate all that has been agreed first? What would do?
For those who think Kramnik’s behaviour is not suspicious:
That Kramnik spent eighty two minutes in front of a bathroom door without entering and without having to go to another restroom proves that his “need” to go 50 times per game to the bathroom is false. Furthermore, he is suspected of using a small chess set to make moves physically while in the bathroom (the only place sans cameras) which gives the palyer a minimum of 300 Elo points of advantage. This is serious since neither player is searched for non-electronic devices. It also sheds a dark light on the Kasparov vs Kramnik match, since Kasparov complained (just like Topalov) that Kramnik made too many trips to the bathroom!
Let me repeat: Kramnik explanation of his frequent bathroom visits is completely insatisfactory. He claims that he uses it to “walk”. Is the bathroom so big that he can walk inside it for 1 to 2 minutes at a time? (he claims he uses it as an “extension” to the restroom yet he “disapears” inside for such lenghts of time many times, some obviously for actually relieving himself but many others for “walking”). His “need” to go to the restroom so frequently (and his “need” to walk so much because of his disease) was proven false by his “sit in” in front of the restroom for 82 minutes (60 minutes till the forfeit and 22 minutes before that until they starte the clock), he did not need to go a SINGLE time to the bathroom in that time span, nor he needed to walk “so much” during it. There are only two reasonable explanations for such behaviour: either Kramnik has some sort of psychiatric disorder that forces him to be in the restroom so frequently (his claimed inordinate “thirst” was also proven false in this 82 minute interval) or that he is “somehow” cheating. Since electronics are carefully inspected for (and there is even interference) we can rule out radio intervention and chess computers (except if he uses a sophisticated water pipe morse code like one source claims) so the only other way for him to cheat is by using said portable chess set.
ELECTRONIC SURVEILLANCE, SEALING THE TOILET, ETC WILL NOT WORK BECAUSE KRAMNIK HIDES THE CHESS SET IN HIS CLOTHES, THE ONLY SOLUTION IS THE ONE PROPOSED BY SEIRAWAN, THAT THERE IS SOMEONE PRESENT IN THE BATHROOM.
Stop spamming hoaxmaker!
dcax: you are not helping your boss Kramnik with such remarks. All the money they are paying you to “patrol” the message boards in all those sites is being wasted. Please start using arguments and not slander.
This match is the equivalent of the Super Bowl or World Cup final. Imagine , if you can that during one of those games, one of the teams left the field after a few minutes of action because of an umpires call. It simply wouldn’t happen. The players are professionals who realize that the way they earn their living is by giving the fans a good show. Both Kramnik and Topalov need to ralize the same thing. The world championship chess match will never attract big money sponsers as long as either of the players retains the option to walk away and not complete the required games.
The simplest explanation is that Topalov is a poor sport who wants to win at any cost, and the FIDE committee is corrupt.
Analysis by two impartial, well-respected GMs:
http://www.chessbase.com/newsdetail.asp?newsid=3382 http://www.chessbase.com/newsdetail.asp?newsid=3379
Argument that FIDE / Topalov violated the spirit of the match:
http://www.chessbase.com/newsdetail.asp?newsid=3374
Argument that FIDE violated the legal contract of the match:
http://www.chessbase.com/newsdetail.asp?newsid=3378
Evidence Topalov was happy to “win” this way:
http://www.chessbase.com/news/2006/elista/savinov20.jpg
“Topalov happy to receive the full point for game five”
Proof that Topalov exaggerated when he said Kramnik visited the bathroom 50 times:
http://www.worldchess2006.com/main.asp?hid=1002
Evidence that questions the FIDE president’s integrity:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Larisa_Yudina
Kramnik is known for his ability to draw (tie) games.. He had already scored 2 wins and 2 draws against Topalov, so it was unlikely Topalov would have been able to win the match. His play was not perfect… and the bathrooms were checked by arbitrators and represenatives of both players before each game to ensure there were no hidden computers or way to transmit radio signals from the restrooms.
Susan Polgar questioned why Kramnik accepted to play FIDE’s favorite in
FIDE-land with FIDE arbitrators. I agree, that wasn’t wise. He should’ve insisted on a neutral location with neutral arbitrators, and turned down the match if that wasn’t possible.
Ron pointed out that visiting the restroom so often looks suspicious–even if there are no computers or radios in there. I agree. It would have been entirely reasonable for the FIDE committee to delay the match to work out a compromise ammenable to both players.
Don’t understand why blog is STILL so pro-Topalov.
I do not understand why blog is still so pro Kramnik!!!